The Case for Getting Lost in Nature (and Off the Algorithm)

[0:00] Kiara: Welcome back to Put the Guidebook Down with me, Kiara, as your host. Today we're talking about something I've been thinking about a lot recently. Why is it that some of the most transformative travel experiences happen in places where absolutely nothing is happening? No famous landmark, no guided tour, no bucket-list attraction. Because when we think about the travel that changes us, we often imagine major life moments. Such as moving abroad, taking a solo trip, visiting a dream destination. But many travelers will tell you that some of the most meaningful moments happen somewhere much quieter. A mountain trail, a desert overlook, a sunrise nobody else saw and did not make it to your Instagram. Today's guest has spent years exploring Utah's national parks. Backcountry trails and landscapes that most travelers drive right I am also extremely happy because she's one of my best friends, Melanie Katz. She's a dentist, an entrepreneur, an EMT, and someone who spent the last several years exploring Utah while going for dental school. And we're going to dive in about why nature has a lot of ways about changing us that traditional tourism often doesn't. So, Mel. Thank you so much for joining. How are you?

[1:16] Melanie: Good, thank you for having me. I've been so excited for this.

[1:19] Kiara: You're always telling me about your really fun travel adventures in Utah. And as someone who needs to improve their own domestic travel of the United States, I was very excited to hear more about your own personal experiences and share it with my network, since I feel we cover a lot about international travel that we often forget the importance and the possibilities of discovery in our own backyards. So I'm very excited for this episode. Are you ready to get started?

[1:46] Melanie: I am too. Yes I am.

[1:49] Kiara: Just jump right in first with a little more context from you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up in Utah and exploring so much of it?

[1:58] Melanie: Yeah, so I grew up in New York. I'm from New York and about an hour outside of New York City. So some of my favorite memories are from there, and I think I've developed a big appreciation for New York City and kind of just an urban atmosphere. But kind of even as I'm growing up, a lot of times I would find myself exploring outside of the city, New England, the Adirondacks, Pennsylvania, just kind of learning about those areas, meeting the people, going hiking, kind of just exploring things that you wouldn't really see commonly featured when you look up things to do in New York or things to do in Massachusetts. So that was kind of a lot of my upbringing, especially 'cause my family and I would spend a lot of time together in the Berkshires. I've developed a big appreciation for nature and slowing things down and just appreciating the little things.

[2:53] Kiara: Love that moment of slowing down. 'Cause we talked a lot more about slow travel on this podcast. So when I hear that kind of moment of pause, really taking it in, turning into your senses, and how that is where you find that with travel and this hiking. It's just so exciting to hear that, because I feel we're so invested in this fast paced world that we forget that there are opportunities for us to pause and slow down. We just gotta find them or create those moments. So tell me, was there a special moment or unique hike, whether it's in Utah or in general, where that it kind of genuinely changed you or your approach to travel?

[3:24] Melanie: I would say there's kind of two instances. One, this was shortly after my fiance and I moved to Utah. We went to Monument Valley and we timed it in such a way that we would go for the sunset. And it was almost a very spiritual experience, and it was one of my first exposures to the American Southwest and just learning about the Navajo and just the ancient land that used to be there and what it actually symbolizes. So I think that was, it's hard to put into words that type of experience. And I think everybody that was there, there was just a few other people there, I think everybody really felt that. It was really silent, it was extremely peaceful, and you don't really get that anywhere else. So I think that was a moment of, it just felt like, [4:26] you know, everything's gonna be okay. Sun's gonna set and we're gonna be here for another day, and it just kind of put things into perspective of where we are and just kind of the landscape that we're in and how big it is and how small it is, and everything's gonna be okay, and I think we need a bit of a reminder for that. So that's one of them, and that's something that I keep on going back to and kind of with those emotions. I think the other one, just totally different vibe. [4:52] But it's a very kind of me type of interaction. We were hiking one of the mountains out kind of in the remote High Uinta wilderness. And that's about an hour and a half away of a drive from Salt Lake City. And it's in an area where Utah's highest mountain is. So it's pretty out there. And it's pretty [5:11] rugged, remote terrain, and it's a very, very inhospitable climate. [5:21] One of our first hikes there was summiting this mountain. We broke twelve thousand feet, and that's when I really learned what hypoxia felt like, which was a fun [5:29] one. Just being able to experience something that we'd watch on Instagram or watch on TV, people climbing mountains, I think was a pretty surreal experience being there. But I think the wild thing that I really liked aside from just being present was [5:48] the environment that you're in doesn't care that you're there. Like you're trespassing in nature in a way and you have to respect it. You have to respect the mountain. You have to respect what you're doing and you have to approach things very carefully. 'Cause if you don't, these places can kill you. And I don't know, I think something about that really sat with me, and I was like, I like this. I wanna do this more. That whole like adrenaline kind of euphoria. [6:16] So I like chasing that. Responsibly, of course. Responsibly. [6:21] I went prepared. I had backcountry maps. We had a bunch of water and snacks and everything and we timed it in such a way. But I think there's a respectable way to approach adrenaline in that type of environment.

[6:28] Kiara: That was so deep, both of those. I don't know if everyone gets to that level of reflection with their hikes, or maybe they're not there yet, but I feel that there was a lot of transformation in those two experiences and maybe like what you learned or what you like, as you mentioned, chasing the adrenaline and using that to help shape where you travel next and hike. [6:58] It's really interesting, 'cause I do like the whole statement about you are kind of trespassing on nature. And I think there's the famous quote of to leave no trace when we hike, and we've talked about this in sustainable and environmental travel, that you want to go and experience these places, but we must honor, respect them, and take care of them so others can also experience it. If we're starting to leave trash everywhere, if we're starting to trample through the woods on the undesignated paths and we're causing harm to the environment, which [7:27] not always the best thing for us in the future if we want others to experience that moment. But this point of transformation, I want to dig a little bit deeper into. Why do natural environments often feel more transformative than those traditional tourism experiences that we see marketed to us or on social media? What are your thoughts around that?

[7:49] Melanie: I think it has to do with kind of more traditional tourist things or more mainstream touristy kind of things. I think there's a lot of superficial gratification with that. It's an experience that's very curated towards a certain amount of people or a certain population to get a certain message across. And that to me is not as authentic as just working towards something. So all of these, like the national parks in Utah. So Utah's a massive state. I didn't realize how big it was until I started driving through it. But for like Zion National Park and Bryce Canyon, they're about four hours of a drive from Salt Lake City, and that's the biggest international airport nearby. The other one is actually Las Vegas. But if you're going there, you're going out of your way extensively to really visit something, and you're going prepared and you're gonna go hiking, so you have to bring all of your hiking stuff [8:44] up with you. So I think there's an element of working towards gratification and just kind of enjoying the process that that kind of offers. A lot of these experiences also, I can speak for being in the Southwest, you hit a lot of these [9:01] untouched areas or land that was inhabited by the Pueblos or the Navajo, or just they have this history, like the air is almost like thick with history, right? And [9:15] I think you being in these areas, it's hard not to feel the weight of what was there before you and who was there and what they did. And it's almost perfectly preserved because of how hot and how arid it is. So I think that just adds a lot to how impactful an experience can be. Because you might be one of the first to experience, or one of the rare few people to experience something like that.

[9:24] Kiara: I think to your point, a lot of these maybe are not well known. So people don't even know that there's these options for them. Which kind of goes back into the whole role of the tourism industry and how we consume travel, how we make our informed travel decisions around it. And that's where I've talked about in a previous episode about the role of AI, because so many people use AI in their travel planning. If that experience of what you're talking about or those locations are not well known, there's not a lot information about it, these AI tools will not pick up on it and recommend it into these travel it. [10:17] that people ask it to generate, so therefore people just don't know. And they keep going to the same places over and over again. So it almost becomes predictable in a way for where people then go in Utah for their hiking. So then do you think that the reason many travelers may feel disconnected from travel or like skipping places is because everything has become too saturated with AI or predictable just for their own travel?

[10:44] Melanie: Yes and no. I think with AI, and I learned this also, you know, with studying and learning how to use AI to my advantage in my professional realm, you have to prompt it a certain way. And I think there are ways to go about that, but I think the biggest turn-off for some of these things is a lot of these places are a little bit remote. They're uncomfortable, they're remote, you have no cell service. And that, for the average person to be kind of disconnected from basically, my parents call it the umbilical cord, which is cell phone, makes people uncomfortable. So I think [11:18] maybe people have heard about these areas 'cause they are publicized, and I think my Instagram algorithm has picked up on my interest pretty well and has recommended me a lot of cool places that I've visited. But I think because these places are so out of reach for the average person, and without making like a concentrated effort, that already is a bit of a turnoff for some people.

[11:22] Kiara: So just because it's forcing people to kind of step away from technology or maybe just be in a remote location, that they're just not attracted to that option, or they're afraid maybe to be uncomfortable.

[11:50] Melanie: Yeah. I think if you don't have something that is a bunch of signs or something that just creates that level of, hey, this has been done many times before, so now it's predictable, [12:12] being able to basically step off the beaten path makes people uncomfortable in that regard. And I say this, but you gotta do it safely though. I'm not advocating for poor trip planning, because a lot of these trips, especially out in the desert, I carefully plan them and make sure that everything is okay and that I'm safe and my parents know what's going on and my fiance knows what's going on.

[12:18] Kiara: Fully clear. I know I've talked a little bit in previous episodes, like scraping the surface area to that point, especially with how when people use social media for their travel planning, they almost expect to get what they see and pay for based on that social media post. [12:49] We've seen that trend where people go expectations versus reality in the travel destination, and then people don't get what they saw on social media and then leave the maybe hateful or shaming videos online, and that does harm to those local businesses who maybe didn't even know that UGC content was created about that. So one hundred percent, it can make people uncomfortable going into the unknown, but that's what we're all about on this podcast, is trying to help people feel empowered to go and take that leap. Safely, of course.

[13:14] Melanie: Right. There's so many cool places in this country, and I think I guess some people are being reminded of it. I mean, with the World Cup happening and everybody from all over the world are visiting just normal American cities, discovering what Walmart and Costco are and what Buc-ee's is. I think it kind of reminds us of, okay, our country's massive. Our country has these really cool, geographically diverse places. And you know, the national park system, which is I think one of the most American things that we have and that is so uniquely special to us, is almost of a way to just allow us to responsibly [13:57] visit these places and responsibly, you know, indulge in these curiosities and make it accessible, [14:06] before, you know, visiting the backcountry, visiting some more off the beaten path things, but not so off the beaten path things. And I think it should be a bit of a reminder for people. Well, people are exploring our country. We should explore our own country. And I've been doing that a lot since I moved out here. And I've been really, really pleasantly surprised.

[14:20] Kiara: It's a great reminder, and that's why I was like, this is a good episode to have, 'cause we're always talking about the international trip that we forget that there's so much to see in our own countries, and that maybe ones that we take advantage for, don't give two minds to, but then someone who's visiting the country for the first time will. So being more open or receptive to those new experiences or maybe trying to reframe our perspective when we look at [14:53] what we have available on our own home turf for travel. I wanna go a little bit deeper with that then, because we're really talking about perspective, transformation on that front with travel. So then why do some trips leave us feeling entertained but unchanged, especially with hiking or maybe domestic travel?

[15:14] Melanie: Well, I think there's the element of just materialism and things just being given to you. And then I think there's also, you have people that just check off an experience and just say they went through, I went to New York, and all they did was just visit Times Square and not learn about the arts and the culture of New York City, which is by far one of the best in the world, if not the best. I think it goes back to [15:35] like working towards your trip. When things are being handed to you, I think there's an element of just immediate gratification that fades away pretty quickly. Almost like a dopamine high that goes away super, super quickly. But the reward is the whole process of actually working towards, planning towards, [15:57] learning about these new places and maybe adjusting your schedule because you found something new, and just the whole behind the scenes part I think is just as important to indulge and appreciate as actually visiting the place and embracing that. And I think you don't really have that with a lot of more superficial or curated things.

[16:08] Kiara: I think that modern travel and some guided tours do that whole just handing on a platter, the cookie cutter, to try to avoid disappointment or stress when it comes to travel planning. But that's where we start to lose our curiosity within it, and we can go through these experiences, but it's really just going through the motions to check off and say, yeah, I visited the Eiffel Tower when in Paris. Yes, I visited the Pyramids of Giza, rather than taking the moment to appreciate the fact that you just saw the Eiffel Tower and Pyramids of Giza.

[16:30] Melanie: Right, right. I'll do you one better. There was a coworker, when one of my fiance was working in one of her jobs, was a coworker of hers. She said she visited the Empire State Building. And she visited New York. She's like, you visited the Empire State Building? She's like, yeah, I visited the one in Las Vegas. I'm like, that gives off such just like checkbox energy. [17:16] But like, have you read The Mole People?

[17:19] Kiara: No. What is this?

[17:20] Melanie: Okay, you should. So I'm almost done with the book, to give you about an idea of off the beaten path travel, because even New York City has that. So I don't want to hear from anybody, but even New York City has that. And it's a book that documents the experiences and the interactions of the people and the homeless that live in the tunnels, live in the abandoned subway tunnels underground. And [17:47] it just goes to show you that there's a whole other world from what people usually think. Because everybody hears about New York and they hear about Times Square and they hear about the Hard Rock and the Empire State Building. But you have something like that. And you have all of these really unique off the beaten path kind of things in New York City. You could visit some abandoned subway stations. [18:09] People have gone to the tunnels. Yeah, you can go on the rat tour. Yeah, we went on the New York City Rat Tour, which was actually super interesting. I learned a lot about that. So I don't know, I think it just goes to show you that you don't have to be in a remote area. [18:26] You just have to do a little bit of research and do a little bit of your own planning and you could get these really profound experiences as well.

[18:35] Kiara: Yeah, so then what would you say, like for mindset shifts, what would you recommend travelers look for if they want those deeper experiences or the lesser known ones, such as ones you just listed now?

[18:47] Melanie: So I am a big fan of using the National Park Service website. And so there's a few things. So the National Park Service website is a big thing for me. When I visited Florida, everybody's thinking, yeah, I went to Miami, and I went into the swamp of the Everglades and almost pet an alligator and a crocodile. That's actually what I did. But you go on the National Park Service website, for example, and we'll pull up Big Cypress National Preserve, which is kind of in the swamp in the marshy lands in the middle of Florida, [19:17] in the middle of southern Florida. And they have all of these ranger-led activities. Some of them are free, or other ones are just super reasonably priced. And they take you on these group tours. You could go on bike rides. These park rangers are extremely invested in the well-being of, you know, ecology and our biomes and everything. So they pass off that passion to you and everybody in the group through these activities. And I think that's a great start. And then I usually bother them afterwards and ask what would they like to do, or what do they like to do that's kind of [19:57] unconventional and what can they recommend for me, and you'd be able to hear it from somebody who's done it. And I think that's a very valuable experience. So the National Park Service website's a big one. The other one that I also really like, so ChatGPT has many, many uses. It's good for a lot of good things, it's for a lot of bad things. But you can prompt it to help you find unconventional things. And sometimes I'll use it with [20:23] Google Maps. Like do you ever just pull up Google Maps and you just find an area and you just start going down a road and you see the kind of what's in there? Yeah, so that's how I discovered the world's biggest thermometer.

[20:31] Kiara: Of course. I remember you showing me the pictures from Max.

[20:40] Melanie: I was really happy about that, and that's my side quest, is finding the most, like the biggest or the largest or something of like statues and like weird things. So so far I've seen the world's biggest thermometer and the world's biggest Monster can, which is at a gas station in Utah. But [20:58] I think being able to go on Google Maps, you'll be able to find little towns nearby, and then it also has marked federal lands. So conservation areas or state parks, and they have a map. They kind of like map it out on Google Maps of the boundaries of everything. And I think [21:18] you could learn about, you just click that area and it'll kind of give you like an info section, people's reviews, things to do, and I think that's a great start. And then the last thing is Google Maps also has a bunch of monuments and they star them so you can see where these monuments are. And that itself [21:35] is a whole like gold mine right there, 'cause you can take these and you can, you know, then put them into chat or something like that, or you can put them into Google and see what's written about them. Is it worth going, you know, and that's kind of how I built a trip out of Las Vegas for a few days into California, is just kind of wandering on Google Maps and seeing what you can find. So [21:59] I think those are good starts.

[22:02] Kiara: Those are great tips. I myself have done the Google Maps one, and that's how I found, for example, the largest cowboy boots in Texas. This was outside of San Antonio, but it's the same strategy of you just zoom in, look around an area that you're planning to visit, drop some pins and [22:22] try to get more context if there isn't any other search tools. So I think those are some great tips for people to start challenging themselves a little bit deeper and more curious into their travel planning. So thank you for sharing those, Mel. Are there any final words of advice, tips or tricks that you would like to leave before we wrap up today's conversation?

[22:28] Melanie: I would say if you're unsure of putting yourself out there, and if you want to explore these areas and you're unsure safety wise or you're uncomfortable, there are so many travel groups and local groups that exist, and I think that's such a great way to put yourself in these environments and to really be comfortable and learn how to be uncomfortable but also be prepared. So I think learning how to use your resources is a really big part of this whole thing. And you know, don't be afraid to do that. And just enjoy the process. It's a super fun time. And when everything comes together, it's a really great time. And you feel so accomplished a lot more because you built this up from scratch. And I think that's so, so special.

[23:31] Kiara: I love that. Great advice, a great way to end our conversation today. To our listeners, I want to leave you with a final thought. The places that change us most are often the places that ask the least from us. They don't ask us to buy anything, they don't ask us to document anything, they simply ask us to be present. And maybe that's why some of these off the beaten path experiences feel so transformative. So whether you're hiking through Utah like Mel, walking through a local park, or simply standing outside the world's largest thermometer, I hope this episode encourages you to slow down, to pay attention, to look or stay a little longer. And to remember that meaningful travel isn't always about going farther and checking the most off your travel checklist. Sometimes it's just about noticing more. I want to thank Mel so much for joining me on this episode. And thank you so much to all of our listeners for listening to Put the Guidebook Down. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[24:29] Melanie: Thank you.

[24:38] Kiara: What's a place in nature or off Google Maps that changed you? Leave a comment, send a message, or connect with us on social media. Until next time, put the guidebook down and go experience the world for yourself. Bye.