Between Borders: Finding Home Across Cultures

[0:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Put the Guidebook Down, with me, Kiara, the creator, as your host, joined by my very good friend, Santi Lozada, who has been with me in Moldova as a Fulbright ETA, but then also has lived and worked in Luxembourg and now currently in Croatia. I'm super jealous. But in last week's episode, we talked about what it's like when a world has a big event coming, like the Olympics, and what that means for putting on this kind of performance or facade. But today we're going to take a step back and talk more about what it's like to live in multiple countries, and then how do you find your home while being in those countries? So, Santi, welcome.

Hi everyone. So as Kiara mentioned, my name is Santi Lozada. I'm from New York, but I was born as a dual citizen with Spain, so that's definitely helped me with these multiple countries. And as Kiara mentioned, yeah, we met in Moldova with the Fulbright program. But after Fulbright was over, then I've just been kind of a nomad, because I spent two years in Luxembourg working with various jobs there in the finance world, and now a little bit in New York, and then now here in Zagreb, Croatia, at the World Bank. So yeah, here I am, a little bit of back and forth and all around the world.

I'm super jealous, we talk about this all the time, but thank you for joining me here, and I want to start off with our discussion, a little bit of a deeper topic, on how would you describe where you're from now, since you've lived in all these places?

Oh yeah, honestly, for me the whole question of "where are you from" has always been a little bit not triggering, but it wasn't always easy, because obviously I grew up in New York, but my whole family is from Spain. So I grew up thinking that I wasn't really fully American, because my parents told us we weren't American. But then at the same time we went to a US school, because they didn't want us to lose where we're from, so we didn't speak English at home, for example. We went to Spanish class every week, we went to my family every year. So the whole concept of home was definitely not — because I used to think it was a place, either New York or Spain. But then at the same time I didn't feel like I fit in 100%, because there was always a part of me that was different, right? Because when I was in the US, I was too Spanish to be fully American, but then when I was in Spain, I was too American to be fully Spanish. So that's kind of what led me to start looking for a home, you know, like a third home. So I spent a couple years thinking it could be a place — whether it was Moldova, because I was studying Russian in university and because of Fulbright, of course, and then maybe Luxembourg, because Fulbright ended and I had to figure out something else. But each time I went I met amazing people in each place, and I started to realize it's not really so much the place that can be considered home. I mean, okay, yes, home is a physical place, but it doesn't have to be the country or the city — it's more the place where you have your people. I think that's home, the place where you can just call your friends and hang out, and the place where you make a life for yourself — it doesn't have to be where you're from, it can be another place. So for me now, Croatia's home, but in terms of what would be my permanent home, honestly I'm still trying to find it, because now there's a part of me in all those places, so home is definitely divided now, in a good way. It's not just one area.

So then do you ever feel caught between cultures from being in all these different locations, or has that become part of your identity?

All the time, all the time. Even when I introduce myself, it's always compartmentalized, because I say I'm from New York, I'm saying I'm American, but then I also say I'm Spanish because I am Spanish, right — so even that is like, oh, dual, and then of course, yeah, I'm a dual citizen, that always comes up as well, because most people I grew up with, for example, they've been in the US for generations. Me, I'm like, honey, my parents just came here for their master's and then they decided to stay, and then boom, we were born. So it was always divisive in a way, because it was like, yes I'm from here, but I'm also from there. But then I also spent a lot of time over there in Moldova, so now Moldova is a little bit of home too, because I had really formative years there with Fulbright, and then Luxembourg too, because I had a good friend group. So it's honestly complicated for me, because I'm still trying to figure that out. But definitely, it's little bits in many places, but all put together in one person, I would say.

So then do you feel like, because you're moving around — you said you still haven't found that home yet — do you think when you get to a location you'll have that realization, or do you think it's a destination you have planned in advance and you're like, oh, I can see myself living there? So I'm going to go to like Greece, for example. Where do you think you would find that "this is home" moment?

Okay, so for me, in my personal life, I would say the closest thing to home-home would be my city in Spain, Vigo. And the reason is because obviously we went every year growing up, I have family there, but also because I have so many happy memories there — all of the summer vacations, which I know is biased, because we're always there in the summers, right? It wasn't real life, because real life for me was New York, and the stress and the life a little bit different. So for me the closest thing to home-home was Vigo, because that's basically my happy place. Even though I'm here in Croatia too — long term, I want to buy a nice house there near the beach, especially near one particular beach I basically grew up with, it's called Canido. And ideally, if I could just get a nice house there, that would be home, because it's just my happy place. And I think that's what it is — home is your happy place, it might not be where you were born necessarily, but if you can have that feeling of, I have so many good memories here, then that can be it. At the same time, who knows, right? Because maybe I get another job at another place and then I'm like, oh —

The nomadic side of you, Santi.

Exactly. And maybe love too, because for me so far I haven't found that special someone, but if I end up in another country and I do meet that special someone, maybe that becomes home.

So to clarify for the listeners, you are single and ready to mingle.

I am single, ready to mingle. I can offer you two continents.

Save the password discussion for the next episode, please. But I'm very unique — okay, we can have multiple homes, one of a kind, we're going to build that nice real estate portfolio together. He's already planning out your life, that's it.

Well, we started really deep right now with the discussion of home, let's take a step back, because you made that introduction of you going to Moldova all because of language studies. So you speak Spanish, you speak Russian, you also speak English — probably, I don't know, am I missing a language?

I also speak French, obviously, and now I'm learning Croatian, and just a little Romanian, but I forgot a lot honestly, which I feel bad about because I try not to forget.

That's okay, me too, it's okay, we'll get back to it, I feel like it's always there, we just need to recall it.

Exactly, exactly.

So then, with all these languages, right, you speak them either while you're traveling, maybe in New York you said you speak Spanish at home — do you feel different parts of yourself coming out depending on the language you're speaking, or where you are speaking that language?

Oh hell to the yes, for sure, for sure. Because for me, like say, for example, I get mad — I can only get mad in Spanish. In English it doesn't do it for me, it doesn't have the same vibe, the same zest — especially if you're mad at your brother or whoever, there's just something about — maybe because I was raised in a Spanish-speaking household, but there's just something about yelling in Spanish, or not even yelling, if you want to be more passionate, better in Spanish than in English, I don't know, it just does it for me. But then, at the same time, if you want to sound more, not cutthroat, but more stern, I use Russian honestly, because sometimes not as many people speak it, so when you're speaking it you feel more, that's right. But then, now here in Croatia it's interesting too, because now I'm learning Croatian, and yes, the language is Slavic, so you do have that kind of sternness a little bit, but at the same time they're by the Mediterranean, by the Adriatic, so also more like Latin languages in a way, so it's really interesting for me, because it's a mixture of my culture a bit, like the Spanish, but at the same time they're Slavic, so it's that weird balance — it's the blend, the different blend together. And that's why I really love countries where it's blending — I think that's why I love Moldova too, with that whole blend of Russian, Romanian stuff. That's honestly why I applied, because in my essay I wrote about growing up in a dual-language household, and I was like, oh, people there also grow up in a dual-language household, so I feel that connection with them. It's just creation, but that dual culture thing they have here too, with the Mediterranean influence — I don't know, that's something I personally enjoy, because I feel more, not at ease, but more understood, because people here also are used to mixes of things, and I'm just someone who's very used to a mixture of things.

I like that, especially this whole concept of being a mixture of something yourself, just from being nomadic and living in places, but then also the gravitation to different parts of the world because they share that kind of mixture background and identity. I like that. Well, I feel like what you said, to the point of why you applied to Moldova, that was also one of my reasons — just because of my background as a linguist, being so linguistically diverse there, with not just Russian, Romanian, but also Gagauz, because you lived in Comrat.

Right, oh my god, this whole uniqueness of Gagauz culture, language, and the fact that the language is not documented — people like to say, oh, it's like a dialect, and you're like, no, it's not, it's its own language.

Exactly. And for me, the whole fact that, in my opinion, even though it's a small country, I feel like Moldova is basically all of Eastern Europe in one place, because you have the more Soviet part with Transnistria, then you have the Turks in the south, in Gagauzia, I call it now, then you have Bulgarians, then you have Ukrainians, then you have some Polish. So I really, personally, really like that as well, because it kind of goes back to that whole, I'm used to being different things. So when I was in a country like Moldova, where people are also used to being parts of different things, it kind of made me — I did feel more at home. Like, obviously New York is home too, but there's something about being there, which is also a mix. And the languages too, right — everyone uses at least three languages there, and I was like, oh honey, say less, or say more, right?

So then do you think Moldova shaped the way you see other cultures now, just because of it being such a mix, and then when you land somewhere you're like, oh, this is a similar mixture-style approach, or not? Can you explain that?

For sure. I would say one of the most important things I learned about Moldova was that not everything is black and white. There's always a gray area, whether that's with culture, whether that's with language, whether that's with history, even or even politics, frankly — there's always a hidden part. Maybe not hidden, but there's always a middle ground. And I feel like, especially if you're someone who's traveling, you can't, in my opinion, go to a place and think of everything as just black and white. You realize there's the gray area, the hidden reason why things are the way they are. And I feel like that's something maybe not as many people consider, but especially after living there, I feel like I've definitely become more appreciative of that, because now I definitely think of the hidden area more, not just with traveling, but in everything. Because now, because of Moldova, I learn more about not just looking at it from one lens or the other, but to try to see the bigger picture in everything — like why things are the way they are, why people act the way they act. So I try to go and not just do the tourist stuff — of course I want to do touristy things, but really it started with me with Moldova, because that was the first place I was actually able to do that, you know, know what the people think, because it's different when you're in your home country, because you kind of already know more or less what people think, because it's your home country. But it's different when you go to a whole different place, and you have to kind of figure that out for the first time, in a whole totally new environment, a place you don't know anything about, and you try to figure out, how do these people live, why do they live this way, how did it come to be? And you don't really get that until you go there and actually be on the ground. So that even influenced my work — at some point I would love to do some type of projects going on the ground, seeing what's on the ground, and then trying to figure out a solution, but definitely that's very important in general, and Moldova was that for me.

Yeah, I think a lot of what you described is going into this idea of living in a country versus living within its culture, because what you're saying is also like expat versus tourist, right — the difference of really integrating into the culture and understanding the day-to-day, what they go through, their language, culture, background, versus when you're just living in a country. I know a couple people who went to a country, lived there for several months, and then didn't even make an attempt to learn the local language. I feel like that's not just disrespectful, but you really have to go out of your way to not learn a single aspect of the local language — not even hello, goodbye.

Yeah, like, come on, you're living there.

Exactly, exactly. I mean, one, I think it's an opportunity, but two, it just, I don't want to sound too harsh, but it kind of shows bad character, I think, because you don't even want to attempt to try to understand these people, their communication — but it also reveals the way a society is made, so you don't want to know how this society is made, or how they function, you just want to go and be like, okay, I'm here, and then I'm out. It's like people who go to Paris, they see the Eiffel Tower and then the Louvre, and then alright, peace out — honey, come on, there's more to Paris than just the Louvre.

So you've got to go, and at the end of the day, it's people. So if you want to go to a place and want to be touristy, that's fine, but to be a really good tourist, in my opinion, you have to understand the people of the place you're going to. And one good way to do that is at least attempting to learn some words of the language they speak.

But honestly, like you said, tourists — I think, as I've talked about in one of the first episodes of this podcast, the differentiation between a tourist and a traveler is: the tourist is doing what you said, going to the main point, taking photos, and being like, okay, peace, I'm out. But the traveler is the one actually making the deeper connection.

Yeah, the traveler goes to the local bar, you talk to the bartender, or you go to some vintage store, you find out about the shopkeeper, and then she tells you about — it's a hole-in-the-wall shop. You start thinking about what's actually happening there, instead of just, oh, Mona Lisa, chick, okay, she's looking at me, where's her eyes? Though it's okay, that can be fun too, right, because sometimes you're only there for a weekend, so I get it. But if you're going to be someplace more than a couple days, I think you should make more of an effort. That's why, personally, I never like going on any vacation where you're just in the resort and you never leave the resort, and that's it. That's why personally I haven't been to the Caribbean yet, because so many vacations that take place there, at least American vacations, you just go to the resort, and you go to the beach at the resort or the pool, and then that's it, and you get the buffet, and I'm like, that's boring.

I think it's a differentiation point between what you're looking to get out of the travel experience, because I'm going to admit, I'm one who has gone to a resort in the Caribbean for a three-day vacation just to dissociate on a beach — I feel like sometimes people need that.

I agree, I agree, I think I never went because my family's too big, we could never — you need a whole party going down there, you need a whole plane, like a Ryanair plane, just, oh my god, and yelling in Spanish too, with tortilla.

There you go, there you go.

And the plane smells like olive oil.

There you go. Well, that's maybe not the whole family yet to the Caribbean together, but maybe you just try to get a taste. But I think this leads to the next question I want to ask you, which is, what's one misconception about expat life people rarely talk about then? Because I feel like there are many, but you've lived abroad, I've lived abroad — what is the number one for you?

I would say the number one is definitely with money. Because when you say expat, a lot of locals, including me here in Croatia — because when I introduce myself, obviously they always ask two things: one, where are you from, and the other, what are you doing here? So of course I'm not going to lie, right, so I'll be like, oh, I'm from this place and this place, but I live here now because I work here, that's usually my little spiel. But then when people hear that, they always think you came to — it also depends, because some people just don't like expats at all, so they're like, oh, you're just here to raise prices. So I feel like it's definitely money, because when people find out you're an expat, one of the first assumptions is that you're going to raise prices, you're going to make rents go up. So sometimes I feel bad too, because I don't want to be part of that problem for locals, but I came here for a new job, so I'm living here full-time for a long time, at least three years, so I feel like that's a little bit different. But definitely with expats it can be hit or miss, because some people do go to certain places and become expats and just flaunt their wealth, and make rents more expensive. But I feel like if you do it in a — I don't want to say classy way, but if you've got good intentions, I think it's different. But definitely the first stereotype is about money, because you're rich, and that you're going to be buying property or buying some business or something like that, and making things more expensive for local people, so you've got to kind of get through that too, you've got to be like, I'm not trying to make your lives harder, I promise you, I'm genuinely here on good terms.

But I also get why they do feel like that too, so that's also part of the process — you've got to be a little bit understanding as well, back to this gray area, there's always a reason why things are thought of the way people think about expats. Yeah, that's part of the hard part about being here, is kind of navigating — also, I don't know anyone here, so you have to make friends from scratch.

It can just be not being afraid, basically, that's the biggest thing — you just can't be afraid, and you just go eat by yourself sometimes maybe, if no one else wants to come, or go — it's little things, it's not for everyone, I know it's not for every person, but it can be more, if you're not as shy, then it can be a great experience too, because you can figure out things about yourself, about how resilient you are, how adaptable you are, so that can be a good thing.

I think you're definitely onto something there — there's so much that, I don't want to go down this rant, because that's for a later episode, but when it comes to — I lived in Indonesia, but Malang, I always have to specify that, because everyone thinks Bali, because of the travel-influencer nomad thing and they're just living and working there. That's part of my whole research, was the whole impact on local culture, language, history, and then the economics behind it. Many people are like, oh, I'm here because it's cheap — that's where people get upset, because that's driving up their cost of living day to day, and then locals can't afford it on the local economy. I totally get that side, but I think what you're emphasizing, in terms of how you go about approaching the subject and the effort and intention you put behind being an expat in that country, is really what makes a differentiation point. I know from my experience, as you said, being comfortable alone and doing things alone and having that courage to just try it and create the friendships is one of the big aspects of expat and nomadic life that I feel like people don't necessarily talk about, because they're not comfortable being by themselves, necessarily — it's their first time being by themselves, and they're like, oh my gosh, what do I do?

Sure, for sure. And I feel like it's even, personally, it's important, because you have to know who you are, and one good way to do that is if you live by yourself in a new country, because then it forces you to really think deeper about who you are. At least in my case it made me much more humble as well — I don't think I was ever an arrogant person growing up, but I definitely became much more humble over these past few years, one, because you see different experiences of people, but then also you become more grateful for things you had back home, or for your parents, because when I was a teenager we were all really rebellious and stuff, but then you become an adult and you're like, I want my mom. So now I'm like, mom, I understand what you were saying now.

100%, 100%, it gives you more perspective on everything, on yourself, on your surroundings, and also on other people, because now you're used to interacting with other people who, frankly, don't really care about you in the beginning, because they don't need you — so it's up to you to kind of become someone in their life, that connection.

Correct, yeah, 100%. I think if we're going to go back in terms of this home idea, and now what it means to create a home, build a home wherever you are — I think for me, just coming back to the States, it was a little bit difficult, and I'm sure you can relate to this, in that you've lived in so many places — your home or idea of home and perspective of home when you left it is not necessarily the same that you come back to. And I know I've talked to many expats about this, this concept of you're in this weird middle space now, where you don't fit in with the home you had before, you don't fit into exactly the location you're living now, because you're never going to truly be a local from that country. So then you just exist in this middle area — what's your take on that?

Oh, I a hundred percent agree, because from my personal experience I think I was a little bit naive, because when I first left originally to go to Moldova, that was the first time I was really leaving. I really thought for some reason that things in New York were going to stay the same — I don't know why, or that people weren't going to move on with their lives, which of course is nonsense, of course people are going to keep moving on with their lives, but for some reason, I don't know, when I was leaving I thought I'm going to come back and it's going to be the same. But then when I got back, obviously that was not the case — people were getting married, people were dating, buying houses, even my family was changing, like my mom put more things in my room, I don't even have a room anymore, I sleep in the — whenever I go home, I sleep in the room downstairs, we call it the TV room, because that's where the TV is, so it's not even a room-room, it's like a public room where people go and watch TV and stuff. So even that changed the whole family dynamic too, because now my family is used to me not being there, so they're used to not inviting me to things. So even that's something you have to kind of work with, because I feel like many people don't talk about this, but if you're an expat, if you're someone living abroad, your relationship with your family changes too, because they're used to you not being there, so they're not going to invite you to as many things, they might not tell you as many things either, because you're far away, or even if they do tell you things, maybe it's like a therapy session — for example, with me, whenever I talk with my mom, it's like I'm her best friend, because she tells me all the tea in the house, and she goes through each of my siblings, and she does the recaps, and since you're the outsider, you get that different vibe. So even your relationship with your family changes as well, and for some reason I don't know, when I first left, I thought it wasn't going to happen, I don't know why, but of course it happened, so now you have to navigate that too. So yeah, your whole perception of home changes as well, back home, because now it's like my family is different, in a good way maybe, but for some people in a bad way, because they don't like being far physically. So you also have to navigate that, so that even pushes you again to think, okay, so what exactly is home for me — is it the physical place where I grew up, or is it the place where I am now?

So for me, I think home is going to be — home is the collection of everywhere you've been. It's the place where you feel most at ease, which doesn't have to be where you were born. I feel like that's my definition, and so far I'm trying to figure it out — in my case, personally, the closest thing I have to that would be back in Spain, but again, who knows, right, life's a roller coaster, so maybe home is a place I'd never even thought of before, and I haven't even been yet. So home can evolve, home can evolve as well — it's not set in stone, it can also evolve, so that's kind of my little spiel about that. But yeah, the family thing, I didn't think about that when I first left, but then, oh!

Yeah, yeah, yeah, navigating that. I really loved how you just kind of summed that up, and your perspective on what it means to create a home and build that home wherever you go in the world. But I want to remind everyone that, as you said, maybe home is not a destination or a solid structure — it's the rhythm that you build as you move through all these countries, these life pathways and experiences. I really like how you said it, I'm going to keep that in my reflection point as well.

And I'm going to start closing up the episode a little bit with our last question, very quickly — if someone's about to move abroad, what would you tell them about finding belonging in the simplest way?

Oh, okay, food. Food is, for me, one of the biggest, easiest ways you can find belonging with people, because everyone loves to eat, everyone wants to eat good food and certain dishes. For example, I feel like every culture has a dish that involves pastry with a filling — whether it's empanadas, whether it's dumplings, whether it's pelmeni, everything, everyone has a similar type of thing, and you just have to find what that is. Or maybe it's having a beer, or stuff like that — so food, for sure, because food always makes people come together. And even food can be home, because food reminds you of home as well — like the smells of the kitchen, like me for example, I always have at least five, six big bottles of olive oil, I love it, that's my home, I need olive oil everywhere. And just be open to it, because you can't be too reserved — if you're too reserved, then you're going to get to that new place and you're not going to do as much, which might make you feel more depressed and lonely. So you have to navigate just not caring in that way, of being open to say hi to strangers, and speaking to people you don't know — those would be two of the biggest things for me when you're moving. And just be excited, because you never know, it's a new country, you're going to get there and who knows what happens, just enjoy the adventure of it.

I love it, that's so — I love it. We need to get you on board as an ambassador for us, because you hit all the points, guys, I promise I did not tell him to say these things, this is genuine and authentic, so I love it. But I want to thank you for coming on — whatever you want, darling, whatever you want. I want to thank you so much for coming on and speaking for this episode, Santi, and I miss you, I need to come to Croatia or you need to come here, we need to catch up in person. But I want to encourage everyone — all of you have to come to Zagreb, to meet Santi, he's amazing, he'll make you laugh. But I want to encourage everyone in the comments on any of our channels to really share what your definition of home is — do you agree with me and Santi, or do you have different interpretations? I would love to know. And be sure to visit our website, our channels, and really start to dive into finding your maybe next home, or feeling of home. So thank you so much, Santi, and everyone, we'll see you next episode.

Thank you so much. Adios and bye.