When Travel Stops Being About You: Inside Community-Led Tourism

[0:00] We talk a lot about on this podcast in terms of traveling differently, but today's episode is about what happens when travel stops centering the traveler at all. Community-led tourism is one of those phrases that gets used a lot, but maybe often misused or misunderstood. So today I am joined by Sivan,

[0:20] who has spent years thinking deeply about sustainability, local ownership, and what it actually means for travel to give back without taking more than it should. Sivan is the creator behind Sivan Travels Green, where she provides insights into sustainable, culturally respectful travel in an educational but accessible way. Her work highlights community-led and positive impact initiatives, local perspectives,

[0:44] and simple ways in which travelers can make mindful and responsible choices on their travels. Sivan, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[0:52] Thank you for inviting me. I'm happy to be here. It's a topic I'm really excited to talk about. It's something I'm passionate about.

[0:58] Yeah, and I've been following your content. I love what you're putting out there and how you're really giving spotlight to this initiative and helping us understand more what this really means. So I'm excited to talk about this whole topic with you today.

[1:11] Me too. Thank you.

[1:14] So to set some expectations for today's episode for our listeners, this is not a checklist episode. So if you're here for that, sorry, but not sorry. You're going to learn something different. This is going to be more about mindset, relationships, and long-term impact, as well as travel as participation and not consumption.

[1:33] So let's start at the beginning before the buzzwords start coming into play. So Sivan, what first sparked your interest in sustainable or community-led travel? Was it a certain trip, moment, or realization?

[1:47] So I was trying to think back to one particular moment or trip. And I guess one that came to mind was, so basically back in 2019, unfortunately, I had a really bad accident. And so I had to have this really serious operation on my back. And so I had to cancel this trip of a lifetime to Peru.

[2:08] And then like about three months later, I was like, okay, now I have to, after I'd recovered, I was like, okay, I have to go on this trip somewhere. And I wanted to do it alone because at that time, my friend who was meant to join me in Peru couldn't join me. So basically I went to,

[2:21] um, Vietnam, Thailand, um, and Cambodia with a company called, um, G Adventures. And I don't know if you're both familiar with them, but they're a Canadian tour operator, and basically a lot of, actually all of their tours involve

[2:37] some form of like positive impact experience. So I went on this trip, and in every country we did, like, we worked with some sort of social enterprise, like we would stay at homestays or learn more about the culture. And I think that trip just really made me realize how much I not just enjoyed it as well,

[2:57] but how you could see that our trip, I guess, was also benefiting the local community rather than just going somewhere for the pretty pictures, which I think, like, everyone, I honestly, I used to be like that as well. My Instagram was full of just me in front of these really Instagrammable places.

[3:12] So I think that trip really started things off for me. So yeah, that was like 2019, so six years ago. And yeah, it's kind of progressed from there.

[3:23] Wow, it's so funny because actually, similar story, G Adventures was my introduction to it as well. I forgot. I was in Turkiye maybe, and they had this initiative where it was teaching women how to kind of be an entrepreneur and create their own goods and just how to run a business.

[3:38] And that's where I first got exposed to this concept as well. So funny, it's all started with G Adventures.

[3:44] And they're great. And they work with something called Planeterra, which I was going to recommend anyway, because it's a great way. Planeterra is basically, they help fund community-run initiatives around the world. And that's who G Adventures work with. So if you ever need inspiration, it's always worth checking out Planeterra or G Adventures, because they have loads of

[4:02] great initiatives on there.

[4:04] Yeah, it's a really good shout out. I totally forgot about that organization. I'm going to have to go back and check it out myself and see what they've been doing recently since I've been with G Adventures. But talking a little bit more in terms of charity, because sometimes when people hear "travel that gives back,"

[4:19] they think it's only in this cookie-cutter way of charity giving. So then what does it actually mean to you?

[4:25] Yeah, so I think giving to charity is obviously great, but I think it also depends on the intent behind it, because I feel like sometimes it can be like kind of white saviorism of it as well. So to me, giving back, I guess, it's not just by giving money, it's also like taking part and participating.

[4:45] So it can be even just as small as, for example, when you go on holiday and you think about staying with like a locally owned accommodation rather than some foreign-owned accommodation, chain hotel. It can be, for example, one thing that I've started doing a lot more

[5:00] recently is looking at social enterprises, for example. So there's like different cafes, restaurants, that just simply by eating there or choosing to visit this place, these are types of cafes or restaurants that then either give back to the local community by training them, giving them new skill sets, things like that. Another way,

[5:18] for example, that I like to do is, whenever I travel, I try to find like some sort of community cleanup event, so like doing a beach clean. I mean, that's really going maybe more in depth. But basically, to me, it's just being very intentional about the way that we travel and to try and make

[5:35] sure that us being there is of benefit, or at least not harming the local community or the ecosystems that we're visiting. So, yeah, giving back is more about, to me, is about the intention and our mindfulness of the places that we go and visit.

[5:50] Yeah, I really like that focus on intention and mindfulness, but especially going back to the point of really kind of being more local-centric or focused, and this idea of giving more spotlight to local voices. I know that's something that I've been passionate about and why I kind of started Kultura Travel, is because, as you said,

[6:08] going the extra step to maybe look into those community-run houses or homestays or experiences that help you interact with the local people, rather than this cookie-cutter kind of isolating, people that the tourism industry kind of tends to create, whether that's intentionally or unintentionally, so this helps you really go into the community you're in.

[6:32] Exactly. Yeah. So going more into this idea, because we referenced maybe what giving back is in the environmental side with charity, but then this is not really touching on ecotourism, or is it?

[6:47] No. So ecotourism, well, I think the thing with sustainable travel is, and I think this is where I was wrong, not wrong, like mistaken in the beginning, was that I always thought sustainable travel was just about the environment. And so ecotourism specifically would be like maybe a hotel that uses solar panels or reusable energy,

[7:07] but then that doesn't necessarily mean that it's locally owned or that the money is going back to the local community. So that's not community-led. Community-led tourism is basically different, especially different to like mass tourism or typical tourism, where basically everything is revolved around the visitor and about convenience and ease. Instead,

[7:28] community-led is something that is not only means that the money is going back to the local community, but it's also them themselves that lead and manage these experiences. So it's up to them to choose what their priorities are, rather than trying to meet the travelers' or tourists' expectations. It's just all about them

[7:47] running it. So giving the power to them, rather than having some foreign company coming in and using them as a commodity, so we're doing like some performative experience. It's them that decide how it's run, where the money goes. So yeah, that's kind of the main difference.

[8:03] Yeah, that's a really good clarification, because I myself am learning as well. So that's why I was excited to chat with you, because I feel sometimes people just throw these words out there just to say them and not really understanding the intention or the impact that these words have to them with their usage.

[8:20] So maybe taking a step further into that, then how do you tell people, when a place is actively, truly community-led and not just using the label or ethically branded or greenwash, like how, what do you look for and how do you navigate that?

[8:39] So it's not, to be honest, it's not like super easy all the time. I also get it wrong sometimes because it really requires a lot of research and reading to make sure. But basically, if like an experience or a company literally just uses these buzzwords to say, oh,

[8:56] we're sustainable or we support local community, and just say that and leave it at that without giving examples, like there's no transparency whatsoever. Same when it comes to greenwashing. For example, I like to look at hotels, if they're saying that they're sustainable, I like to see that they have a sustainability report or to show specific examples

[9:16] of what they're doing. And to be honest, I prefer supporting a hotel or a tour operator that admits that they're not perfect. To me, it's all about being transparent. The other thing to watch out for is when it comes to community-led, is to make sure that the locals are in management positions, they're not in very low positions.

[9:37] That can happen a lot as well. Usually, community-led experiences are, so it's all about quality over quantity. And it's not like some big, well-oiled machine, like some fancy show, dance show that you go to. It's also worth checking to make sure that it's not all centered about the visitor, that it's more centered about the people running it.

[10:03] And when in doubt, like, you should just check the website, see what it says. If it's not clear on the website, you can check reviews, because usually reviews will mention, oh, local family or whatever, locally owned. Or if in doubt, you can always contact them yourselves, in a polite way, just to say,

[10:20] hi, I'm just wondering who leads this, where does the money go to? Just in a nice way, you don't have to be interrogating them or anything. So, yeah, there's a few things to look out for, but obviously it's not always 100% clear cut either. I've also gotten it wrong. No one is perfect.

[10:37] I'm not perfect by any means either. It's just when you get to the place as well, and when you read about it, sometimes, you know, when things feel off, it can feel like performative, then I also start to feel uneasy, and I think you should really follow that gut feeling as well, if all else fails.

[10:54] Yeah, this is like reminding me of a time, because I know there's some instances where it just happens to be maybe how the culture is there and how they operate within the tourism sector. Because I know, for example, my time in Egypt, I was with a local guide, and I did vet them, and I went with them.

[11:13] And it seemed all good, but then they would say, oh, don't buy the souvenirs here, I know someone and it's government approved. So then you go and you realize it's kind of all part of this scheme for hustling you under this label of government approved, authentic,

[11:28] high quality, but reality is just the same thing just under this other label.

[11:35] Exactly. I think all we can do is try our best at the end of the day, is to go in with good intentions, as we were saying in the beginning. And if at the end of the day you realize, oh, it wasn't what I thought it was, then I mean, you learn from that, and you're like,

[11:45] maybe you can leave a review so that other people will know if they're thinking of booking. I think that's like the best that we can do.

[11:52] Yeah, that's really good, especially with going by word of mouth when it comes to going and sharing local experiences. I feel a lot of people sometimes feel that they need to go to the bigger brands because they have that bigger safety net.

[12:06] Exactly. Being in their comfort zone and feeling like their money is going to something that they trust. But I think also asking local people is a great way as well. Like a lot of locals obviously will know these great local initiatives. So I think it's always worth asking

[12:20] locals as well, if you can't, for example, your research, you're not sure, I think it's always worth reaching out to someone who's local too.

[12:27] Yeah, yeah, for sure. I know that's something that myself I've been trying to improve on as a traveler as well, as making the extra effort to just go beyond the travel-influencer-recommended guides and actually do the research and try to connect with someone there. And I can tell our listeners from my own experience,

[12:44] it is a little bit extra work, but then at the end, you're getting a better experience and it's actually leaving a good impact and you're not contributing to this bigger company that's just taking money away from the local community. Awesome. Well, going more into your experience, right, because you've been doing this for a while,

[13:03] can you describe a moment where you saw community-led tourism make a real difference for locals?

[13:11] So it's really hard for me to pick just one. I mean, I've been very privileged and lucky to have traveled a lot in my life, and I'm actively searching out community-led initiatives. But for example, in Nepal, they have a really great network called the Community Homestay Network. So when I went to Nepal, and again,

[13:29] this was a G Adventures or Intrepid, I can't remember which one, but one of those trips as well, and we went to a homestay called the Kirtipur Community Homestay, where we made, which are basically these dumplings that are traditional in Nepal, and it's a homestay, but also like a workshop making these momos, run by the local women.

[13:52] And basically, even before you start the workshop, they like give you a presentation just to show you how many women it has helped. And you speak to the women to see how much has changed their lives, because basically what these kind of homestays,

[14:08] what they do is that they give local women an opportunity to be able to make money themselves, not just to help. Like, for example, a lot of it is like single moms who are running this place. It gives them new skills, literacy, independence. So basically, just while you're there, it's a great experience because you're getting to speak to these women while you're also having fun learning a new skill of making these momos, but just like speaking to the women and seeing how much it's impacted them.

[14:29] And also when you see the stats, you can see like how many women it's helped. I think that's really, yeah, really nice to see. But I mean, that was one example, but there's like so many that I could name. But yeah, that's probably one that stands out.

[14:53] And with this kind of experience, because it is something that is run for multiple tour groups, right, is this, do you still feel that there's authenticity behind what they're doing and the preservation of what they're doing? Or do you feel like starting to go performative in a way?

[15:08] I mean, in this sense, I wouldn't say it's performative, especially because it's very small groups, and they also limited the amount of people that come there as well. And it's not like a show. It's basically you're just taking part in a workshop to learn how to make a traditional dish.

[15:29] So I didn't find it performative either. And yeah, this particular one, not at all. I mean, I've been to some where later on maybe they felt that way, but this was kind of like genuine and natural. They were just like showing us how they make it and then helping us make it as well.

[15:46] So yeah, to me, it felt genuine.

[15:49] Yeah, I feel like sometimes it can be a fine line because it starts to gain traction where people want to go. So then how do you maintain the authenticity behind this intimate gathering?

[16:00] It's definitely a fine line. And I think sometimes it's hard to know beforehand until you're there. Like I said, if you feel uncomfortable or feel like it's being put on for you, then you can kind of notice it. But sometimes it's even really hard to pinpoint.

[16:18] I think one of my personal telltales is when I'm going to an experience or destination and I see the locals there as well, and it's not just a bunch of foreigners, which I don't know if this is like, but that's how I do that.

[16:32] No, I agree. And I think if it's like something run, like a small thing that's not some huge performance, I think that's also one way of kind of telling that if it's being forced or not.

[16:48] Yeah. If it's still good intention behind it and it still feels real at the end of the day.

[17:01] Yeah, exactly. It is a fine line, but I think we're starting with this conversation, it's just helping give momentum and the importance of still maintaining the true intentions behind these, instead of that mass tourism and consumption.

[17:10] Now, transitioning a little bit, because something that I am passionate about with this podcast and with Kultura Travel is really how this type of travel transforms you as an individual and even as a traveler. So what has community-led travel taught you about yourself?

[17:29] So I think to begin with, when I started traveling, like, again, this is my holiday, and this is the same for everyone. You go on holiday, you've waited all year for it, you've saved so much money, you want to go and have a great time, make sure you're comfortable. But to me, I guess it's

[17:45] changed me in the sense that, rather than me trying to always center myself, I go into places asking myself questions like, for example, is me being there going to be more of a benefit than having some negative impact on the place that I'm going to visit? Let's say this is just an example,

[18:03] let's say I want to go to Barcelona in the summer, and I'm like, then I think to myself, oh, is it actually going to help the people or the place that I'm going to by visiting in peak season when it's already suffering from overtourism? And then it's like you have a switch in your head, saying,

[18:19] oh, maybe I should go either to another place or to go in the off season, for example. So to me, it's changed me in the way that I've started asking a lot more questions and being a lot more intentional about the places that I choose to visit and the things that I try to do.

[18:37] But also beforehand, I used to also be really into checklist tourism, like wanting to see it all, doing it all, taking the photo that everyone's taken. Whereas now I'm much more into slow travel and trying to really learn more from the place that I'm going to, and if you slow travel, you spend

[18:54] more time in a certain place, obviously you have more money going into local economy. So I think it's kind of changed my mindset completely, in the sense of it's not just me, obviously I choose places that I think I'm also going to enjoy and learn about, but

[19:09] yeah, I think a lot about whether I should really be going to these places, where I should go to, when I should go. I do a lot of research, I love doing research personally, but I know it's not for everyone. But to me, that's like part of the joy of the trip.

[19:25] So yeah, again, it's all about intention, I think, and just being more mindful and asking these types of questions. That's really how I guess it's changed the way that I've traveled over the years.

[19:35] Yeah, I think we all started with those checklist travels.

[19:39] Yeah, I think it's so mainstream, it's what everyone does. So I guess I get it.

[19:46] Yeah, we all have that as a starting point. I think the important part is how you grow as a traveler, if you just stay stuck with those checklists and that FOMO that social media creates from that travel checklist style, or giving into the unknown a little bit and experiencing the slow travel with it and

[20:02] accepting you're not going to hit all the major tourist sites and being okay with that feeling, because I know that can give discomfort to some people, and that social media says, then if we didn't, you know, you go to India, you didn't go to the Taj

[20:13] Mahal, did you go to India? It doesn't have to be like that.

[20:17] Exactly. I mean, I went to Nepal and I didn't see Mount Everest. So, I mean, to me, it was like a natural decision, but obviously not to everyone, which is why I think, and as you said, social media creates all this FOMO. So that's why I think it's so important, as content creators like myself,

[20:32] I think it's important to share community-based events, trying to make sure that it's not just your voice, but the locals' voice that you're centering, to just show people that there is a different way of traveling, not just the way that social media is like trying to

[20:46] sell you all the time.

[20:46] For sure. And that's actually a perfect segue into my next question, in terms of content creation, because it is part of your job, and you still have to find the balance between doing the content creation and then living and being authentic with everything. So how has this community-led travel changed the

[21:06] way that you tell stories or maybe create your content?

[21:11] To be honest, my content has changed a lot over the years, and I still don't think it's perfect. I'm still changing it, because every time, after every trip, I learn new things or I learn new ways that I want to say things. So basically, my content now is more about storytelling, I guess,

[21:30] which is something that I really enjoy. But also I try to always make sure I do my research and make sure that I ask the local people that I'm either working with, for example, if it's a local tour operator or if it's a community-run experience, I make sure to ask them, like,

[21:47] what do they want me to highlight in my videos, rather than just me choosing what I want to show people. I think it's really important to center the local voice. So I've been trying more and more in my videos to also, if they feel comfortable, of course, because

[22:01] obviously consent is hugely important when you're filming someone or taking photos, we shouldn't just use people as commodities or photo ops. You have to ask for consent. So if they are open to it, and actually most of the time they are, I would film them talking about their initiative, their company.

[22:20] And so I tried to at least include small snippets of that in my content. I tried to have a really long caption, I'm really big on the caption, to make sure that if there's anything I missed in a short video, that it's captured in the caption as well. And to me, it's all about context.

[22:37] I think that's really important as well. So sometimes it can be really difficult, and it takes me like weeks to even figure out how I want to say something, because I would hate to say something wrong. So yeah, it's a lot of work, but it's something that I really enjoy.

[22:54] And it's nice to see how well received it's been as well. So I have a really nice community of people on Instagram, so when I see how well it's being received, I think it makes me feel better as well, that there are people who are genuinely interested in this kind of travel as well.

[23:12] Yeah, as someone who watches your content, I enjoy it. I learn the effort that goes into it to make sure it's coming from a positive way, so you're not trying to impose your beliefs and opinions on what the locals are portraying. You're trying to give space for their voices, which I love. And it's, most importantly,

[23:32] and I've talked about this in my other episodes, is it's not using the culture as a backdrop, which I find sometimes content creators can sometimes, again, fall into, whether they mean to or not. But that's, again, the fine line that we have to be careful when trying to do this content creation strategy.

[23:49] Yes, I definitely agree.

[23:51] Right. Well, going to the end of our episode, we're going to start wrapping it up a little bit. And maybe our last question I would like to ask is, what's one belief about travel you've completely unlearned?

[24:05] So I guess I kind of touched on it earlier. To me, it's really about moving away from checklist tourism, not just but also like country counting. Like I really used to be, oh, I've been to like 60 countries and adding it to a list, as if it's like some sort of achievement,

[24:21] which is very colonial in terms of mindset as well. And so that's kind of something I've completely shifted away from, trying to travel more intentionally, slowly, again, not trying to see everything, hit every spot. And that really took a long time

[24:41] for me to get to, because it's really hard to think, oh, I'm just going to miss this, but then you just realize, oh, but if I stay here a few more days I will be able to learn so much more and interact so much more with the local people. So yeah,

[24:55] it's all about slowing down, being more intentional and mindful, moving away from mass checklist tourism that centers the visitor or ourselves. I think that's probably the main thing.

[25:08] Yeah, I love that. One of the biggest things I also had to learn was that we are not the center of the world when it comes to travel. You are just going into their day-to-day. Don't expect all the special attention to be there.

[25:21] Exactly. We're visitors in someone else's homes. We should enter with respect, how we'd want other people to enter our home or our own country as well.

[25:31] Yeah, exactly. Wow, this is great. Is there any final words, advice, tips, tricks that you would like to add before we close out this episode?

[25:41] Sure. So I think I want to say that when it comes to sustainable travel, that it's not about being perfect. Like, I'm not perfect, no one is. And so I think it's just about, you can't do everything perfectly or well, it's just about choosing small changes or doing small things that are feasible to you. Whether it's,

[25:57] for example, skipping a flight, taking a train, whether it's instead of doing like going to an all-inclusive resort, thinking, oh, maybe I can stay in this locally owned hotel or guest house and stuff, instead maybe I can get a local guide rather than just going somewhere and not learning about it at all.

[26:16] I mean, just really small steps, and just making sure that we ask people questions before, even before booking a holiday. I know it's like it takes a certain type of mindset, but again, it's just starting small and not feeling pressured or overwhelmed having to do everything right, because that's not what it's

[26:37] about. It's just about doing small intentional things that are feasible for us as well.

[26:43] Yeah, that was a perfect way to end it on. You really just summed it up together. And I think I learned a lot. I hope our listeners learned a lot and feel a little bit more inspired to take the time to really understand that this community-led tourism is more about moving through the world with humility,

[27:01] with patience and respect, and accepting that the most responsible thing you might do is just to simply listen, and the power of doing the research before you arrive is going to leave. So I want to invite our listeners that if this episode challenged the way you think about travel, to continue the conversation with you, Sivan,

[27:25] on Instagram at Sivan Travels Green, or with us on Kultura Travel and Put the Guidebook Down, because the goal at the end of the day isn't perfect travel that we find on social media, it's more conscious travel. So yeah, thank you so much, everyone, for listening. And thank you, Sivan, for sharing your expertise and experience with us.

[27:47] Thank you so much for inviting me. It was really something I really enjoy talking about, so I really appreciate it. Thank you. Awesome.

[27:53] Thank you, everyone. Bye.