He Wasn't Teaching Fluency. He Was Teaching Love of the Language.

[0:00] Hey everyone and welcome back to another episode of Put the Guidebook Down, Kultura Travel's podcast, brought to you by me, Kiara, the creator and your host, and my really great friend, who was actually an English teaching assistant with Fulbright in Morocco. Is that right?

[0:18] Yes, in Marrakesh specifically.

[0:19] Marrakesh! You loved it.

[0:21] I loved Marrakesh and Morocco as a whole. My favorite.

[0:24] And I got the opportunity to actually visit you, which was super cool, and do a little whirlwind adventure of Morocco.

[0:29] Whirlwind is putting it really lightly, but it was definitely an adventure and the most memorable one I've had all year.

[0:42] Look at that — we're here to really talk about cultural travel and authenticity that comes when you go into new countries, new cities, and really immerse into the culture. That's why we're so excited to have you come on board for this discussion today, and to hear about your experience going into Morocco, immersing into Moroccan culture and language.

[0:53] Definitely, definitely hit on to that point.

[0:56] Awesome — and also just your overall impressions. Now, I am also a Fulbright English Teaching Assistant alumni to Moldova, so we can have some conversations around that. Our first question is really going to be about your first impressions of Morocco. Let's go all the way back to when you first were in the air — you're seeing your plane come into this country. What are you feeling, what are you thinking, what are you seeing?

[1:23] Actually, if you were going by air, my first impression was nothing because I woke up when they made the announcement.

[1:31] That you have arrived?

[1:32] I have arrived. I had the entire seat to myself.

[1:34] Wow.

[1:35] Actually, the entire row.

[1:36] Not seat. I would hope the seat is mine.

[1:37] It's a subtle flex.

[1:39] Yeah, right? But the TVs didn't work, so is it really a flex? I had a book though, so it's okay.

[1:45] I landed in Casablanca at, I want to say, it was either midnight or 2 a.m. And at that point it's still pitch black, so I really didn't see much, but I had to go to Rabat actually right after. And I remember at that point, obviously I can't sleep, I'm really excited to be there. And I also just got off a plane from napping, so I wasn't too tired. I go from Casablanca to Rabat, which is about a two hour drive, give or take, and all I remember was like, wow, this country is gorgeous. So I saw all the greenery and everything and it was beautiful. And it's not really what I pictured, because I knew I was going to Marrakesh, which is very different — that's all I really had done research on. And then I'm seeing, oh, there's this ton of greenery, these really big trees, it's like a really taken care of environment. And then I spent the next few days exploring Rabat. It was a phenomenal first meeting for this country.

[2:36] Then let's go a little bit farther forward — now more into your first impressions of Marrakesh. Maybe the first one to three weeks, your initial impression there.

[2:46] I hadn't even started teaching yet, which is really funny, but something that will always stick in my brain is — Fulbright said, go take your train now, and there wasn't too much guidance. There was like, here's the website, go book your train. But thankfully the hotel we were in was right next to the train station, so it was really lucky. I got my stuff and hopped on a train, and I'm sitting in the train car, and there's this really nice Saudi Arabian man of all people, buys the entire car water and is just chatting with us, and I'm sitting inside watching the outside, and I just noticed all of a sudden that everything turns to desert and it turns red. Because in the part of Morocco where Marrakesh is, they used a lot of natural materials, which is why the clay in that part of Morocco is red. There's a bunch of different reasons, I think, why it's colored red — I unfortunately am not qualified to talk about that, even though I was told many times. But that really stuck out to me, just the sudden change in color and environment. In Darija or Arabic, Marrakesh would be pronounced "Marraksh," but I don't believe it has any actual meaning behind the redness of it.

[3:56] I see. But it is known as the Red City.

[4:05] I don't want to say the tourism name for it, but I feel like maybe it is.

[4:09] The Red City?

[4:10] Just the appearance of it.

[4:12] Definitely, the same way like Chefchaouen up in the north — it's called the Blue Pearl.

[4:16] Wow, very cool. Then continuing on into this immersive experience and your time there — when did it really start to feel less like you're just traveling into the country, and really starting to feel at home with the area you're in, with your students, the community? Is there a certain time frame you can associate with that moment, or a specific experience or conversation that gave you that "aha" moment?

[4:44] I think that's a really good question. I don't necessarily think I had a distinct moment where I was like, this is home now. But I can tell you that my first trip after Morocco — or during Morocco actually — we had been lucky enough to have been invited to go to Jordan and participate in an English teaching assistant workshop, where we had met all the other ETAs from the MENA region. And I just remember at the end of it, I was really tired — for various reasons — but I just remember saying, oh, I really want to be home now. And in my head, I didn't think of home as New York. I thought of home as Marrakesh. And I was like, okay, wait — okay, it's starting to feel like this is my home and I want to stay here longer and longer. And then definitely by the end of my grant, I was like, home is Marrakesh, my apartment, everything. And up until landing, I took out my phone and Google Maps said "home, eight hours away," and I said no.

[5:47] After you left, the phone knew that that was your home.

[5:48] Exactly.

[5:56] That's so interesting, because I know that some people have the experience where it's like, oh, that's one conversation, or maybe it's with the absorption of the local language — where linguists like to say, oh, if you're dreaming in the language, that's the acquisition process really cementing. So then perhaps if you start to suddenly automatically respond in the local language, that's when people feel like — I am, this is home, this is my true immersion into the community. I know for me in Moldova, it was when I had the automatic response in Romanian, or was thinking in Romanian first and then translating into English, where I really was like, oh, this is my home now in a way, I feel that immersive connection. But yours seems to have been built over the period of time.

[6:41] Definitely. I think so — I think language definitely played a part in it, but I don't think I ever got to a level where I could dream in the language necessarily, but rather it was a difficult one, because you don't have any documentation of it in terms of written text.

[6:55] Right — Arabic is interesting.

[6:56] Yes, as a linguist, that is the standard Arabic that's taught in universities and all over, and that's what's said to unite the Arab world, that one language. But as you look at each individual country, dialects change a lot. Even in the Maghreb, which is Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, the dialects are super different. I'd like to say thank you — in Morocco you say "shukran," and in Tunisia you say "aishik."

[7:30] The difference.

[7:32] Exactly. So my Darija, which is the Moroccan Arabic, was never at the level of dreaming, but it definitely helped me make connections that allowed me to acclimate to Marrakesh and Morocco to a better extent.

[7:45] Do you feel like your experience with Morocco, Marrakesh, would have been the same if you didn't know some aspects of the local language, or no? Like, to what impact was knowing some of the local language? I want to hear your thoughts before I give my opinion, after traveling with you and seeing it from an outsider's perspective.

[8:05] Definitely. Well, I think you were at a high point for my language acquisition. I think we were with another one of my friends who didn't really speak Darija as strongly, so if I remember correctly, I took the lead on a lot of things, especially in Chefchaouen.

[8:20] Yeah, stuck there, the sun's going down, we were like, oh dear, how do we get a taxi or a bus?

[8:26] Exactly, and I'm going around every old man like, hey, listen, we gotta get out — that was the moment I was so proud of you, you were going in full local language, showing off some Arabic and bonding with the locals.

[8:33] I was so happy — I didn't know I knew that much.

[8:38] I think having an understanding of Darija when you go to Morocco is super important. Out of respect, obviously, we all talk about respect, but there's a really huge national pride for Moroccans in Morocco, and as it should be — it's a phenomenal country. And I think showing the effort to learn their language will make them want to talk to you more. I definitely think that whenever I showed I could speak some Darija, they were not necessarily impressed but they were like, yes, let me keep going with you, you got it.

[9:16] Exactly, and then they would reveal they have perfect English after — but hey, let's get coffee and chat, and I was like, perfect.

[9:20] But even Darija — learning that is more beneficial in my opinion than French, because French is one of the other national languages of Morocco, but while a lot of Moroccans do speak it, not everybody does. And also learning about Tamazight or Amazigh is going to be helpful as well, in the mountains. I would say Arabic and Amazigh are the two best languages if you want to create local connections beyond professionalism. I have a lot of friends that I still talk to who actually speak better English than me sometimes, and I think it's allowed us to connect on a deeper level, and it shows them that I didn't just come to Morocco to say that I lived in Morocco — it really allows me to show them that I care deeper. Does that make sense?

[10:28] I actually really like that point — the one where you said you didn't just come to Morocco to go to Morocco, you actually made the effort to connect and build that relationship with the community, culture, and language, because that's what we're all about at Kultura Travel, and also the whole point of this podcast, to give listeners that reinforcement that the extra time you take to research the local history, culture, and language prior to your departure, and then also while in country, is going to create such a more meaningful experience.

[10:59] Definitely.

[10:59] Even after — as you mentioned, because you have those ongoing relationships and conversations and connections with Morocco after your departure — which I just think is such the power of finding that culture and language connection across linguistic borders and communities. So this is going to lead into my next question — in terms of, because we're all about on this podcast debunking travel myths or experiences, I love the whole Instagram versus reality videos on TikTok.

[11:32] It's true. Yeah, absolutely, and I've been a victim to them as well.

[11:38] Oh, absolutely — I was like, oh my god, this was a waste of a two hour commute, and you're like, wow, I really just went out of my way for this, only for it to not even exist.

[11:50] Not even existing, or it being a two-minute experience and you have to hop on a bus right back.

[11:54] Yeah, that's what we're all about debunking here on this podcast. So how did your expectations of Moroccan culture compare to the reality — whether from how you saw it on social media channels, heard from other people, or maybe even what you were given from your Fulbright pre-departure orientation?

[12:14] Got it. No, I think that's super helpful, because as you know, as a Fulbrighter, you can't really claim you had no preconceived notions, because you have to do research while you're applying. I think a lot of my preconceived notions were honestly that Moroccans were very friendly, and that the food was going to be good. But I was also under the impression that there was going to be spicy food.

[12:42] Oh, I fell for that one as well.

[12:44] Yeah, and it's not — it's delicious, but I found ways to put spice in. Just be aware of pickpockets and things like that, but I didn't really think of that in any kind of way other than, okay, it's just going to be Times Square in New York. But then there's also catcalling, which does happen — but that also happens everywhere.

[13:11] Yeah, nothing special.

[13:13] Except for maybe the different type of catcalling — the woofing.

[13:19] I haven't yet experienced that in Times Square — let me say that now — but it's a very special experience.

[13:30] Bring the woof with you everywhere.

[13:32] Exactly, it's a compliment. But yeah, for the most part, a lot of what I experienced being in Marrakesh was just like everyday life living in New York — it wasn't anything crazy, and maybe that's just because I grew up here, so nothing really fazed me too much, except getting used to the language. But my preconceived notions — everybody was very friendly, the food was good, and there were just normal everyday challenges like here in New York. That was it.

[14:00] So then, before we transition more into your English teaching experience there — what's one moment that made you realize you were no longer just visiting Morocco? This is a deep question.

[14:12] I should have thought more about this than I'm just putting it up to you. I have a lot of experiences that I obviously think about fondly from Morocco. I don't know if there's one necessarily that says, oh, I'm not visiting anymore, because there's so many different little things that added up. There was going to a hospital in Morocco, going to different organizations and associations around Marrakesh, really just seeing the local community and different parts of it that you really don't see posted anywhere else. I think also when I went with my friend to Urika, which is a village outside of Marrakesh, and staying in his family home and waking up and having breakfast there, going to see him play soccer with his friends — I just have so many memories and little moments that added up that maybe singularly wouldn't show you're a part of where you're living, but when I think about it all together, I was like, I lived in Morocco, I had this experience, and I'm so lucky too. It was just a lot of little things for me — not one moment that really said, yes.

[15:29] I feel like it's all just the immersive component.

[15:33] Definitely.

[15:35] Oh, it's making me reminisce about my times abroad — I know we both always talk about this.

[15:44] I know.

[15:51] Anyways, we're going to now switch the conversation into more of your experience with English teaching, and really your role as a teacher there, but not necessarily always being the teacher, right? Because we ended up learning a lot from our students while in this program abroad. So how did your role as a teacher change your understanding of cultural exchange?

[16:08] So I think to preface — as you know, Morocco's Fulbright is kind of interesting compared to a lot of other countries, because we aren't English teaching assistants as the name describes, but rather we acted as standalone professors, knowing that you really go in as the standalone professor and that you have points of contact to support you, but face to face, it's just you. So I think at first I really leaned into being the professor — okay, we're going to learn this, we're going to learn that, come up to me after class if you have questions, we can have fun during class, I'll show you some pictures, I'll talk to you about New York and the US if you ask. But for the most part I was really focused on getting my students to understand English. My point of contact is actually the one who made me sit down and think about it. He said, Mike, you're only teaching some of these students for four to five weeks. You meet with them once a week for maybe an hour and a half. It's not a lot of time — certainly not a lot of time to even drill in one language concept. If you're learning — like for example when I was learning Arabic at Stony Brook, we would spend maybe two classes in the week just learning one topic, and I'm supposed to teach a syllabus worth of stuff. It's not possible. So he said, Mike, listen, your goal isn't to necessarily teach them the language to get them to fluency. It's to make them love the language and want to learn it more on their own.

[17:34] It's a good perspective.

[17:37] Yeah, and it was a great perspective, because it really reframed the way I was approaching things. I changed the way I was presenting material, I changed almost everything about my teaching persona, and I said okay, we're going to have fun — how can I introduce you to this concept, introduce you to it, and then use it throughout the rest of class in a way that's engaging, in a way that's going to make students say, okay wait, I kind of remember what we talked about, maybe not fully, but if I go back one time I'll figure it out. And that's what my goal was — that became what I wanted to do. And it kind of informed the way I went around learning language myself, and the way I was able to immerse myself in the local culture. Like, I learned it and I would text my friends in it, I would just text them randomly, out of nowhere, shoot them a whole message in Darija, and they said, what? And I was like, yes, and then I'm going, English, we're going to practice now. And then anything I learned that day I would just send to them. Now a lot of it was not always the most PG — some of my friends would teach me things I should not be saying to students, like swear words. So I was like, I'll keep that one in the back pocket — we're not going to use that regularly in class.

[18:56] Outside of class, I know too much.

[19:01] But it is different — I feel like anytime someone teaches you their language, a couple of words, they always go right for the swear word. Why is it always the swear words? Hello, thank you — I don't know.

[19:13] I mean, I hope if I'm living there, I already know hello and thank you.

[19:18] Well, we'd hope so, but yeah. So my role as a teacher was really informative of the way I actually moved around Morocco, and I would make sure to ask my students, hey, I'm going to do this, is there something I should look for, is there something I should do, some way I should dress? I dressed pretty modestly for the most part, I made sure everything was always covered — I looked crazy, because I was the one white guy wearing jeans in 90 degree weather, but I did my best.

[19:54] But you're so right, because I've mentioned this in one of our previous episodes — the fact that tourists tend to come to countries and dress as if they're in their own country visiting that country, which is not always the most respectful or culturally appropriate. I used the example of being in Egypt in a mosque, and I looked around and there's some European tourists with booty shorts on and a sports bra, and I was like, that's crazy, we're in a mosque.

[20:21] That is definitely crazy.

[20:23] So I'm glad you were the one white guy fully dressed.

[20:27] I was trying, but my students said, sir, we know you're not from here, so you can dress any way you want, but I told them that's not the point.

[20:38] So then did your students ever surprise you with what they taught you?

[20:44] I mean, they taught me so much. I would use them for Darija practice as well — at the end of class if we finished earlier, all right guys, here's what I learned, here's how I did this, and we would laugh because usually I'd be wrong, at least to them, but they'd be like, oh you actually do speak some Darija, respect, nice, bonus points. I think I learned a lot about local politics — I didn't know how Morocco's government looked outside of the king. I mean, we all know Morocco is a constitutional monarchy, but I didn't really know how their government functioned or how it affected their daily lives, and they really taught me a lot. I sat there one day — it was one of our last classes, we'd prepped for the exam — and I sat down and there was 40 minutes left, my students who showed up at that point were all fluent, and the exam was geared towards an A2 level, so we chilled. And they talked about the government, their frustrations about daily life, and they surprised me a lot with their views and what they want in life. It was really nice to sit down and hear about their struggles — I mean that's terrible to say, but as a human we all know we have struggles, and actually hearing face to face that they have these things, that they just want to support their families for the most part, or that school is really a struggle because they have to work a job and do this or go to this city or that city — I was like, wow.

[22:14] It gives you stability.

[22:16] It does, because at the end of the day I was a white guy in Morocco for a year, and as much as I want, I'll never be able to experience what Morocco is like for a Moroccan. And I mean, my students were the closest thing for me — so that was really powerful and really valuable, and I still carry that with me to this day. The way I view anybody now is the way I would view my students — I just want the best for them.

[22:39] Yeah, I think it's really important, because it's giving you more perspective of what maybe isn't accurately represented in the media we consume or what we see online, for what's really going on in the country, or what the students' or local lives are like.

[22:57] Definitely, especially because mass tourism gives us a lot of the cookie-cutter, staged experiences, and you don't really get to understand what people go through on a daily basis to live. And I think for my time in Moldova, one of the big things — similar to where your students went through — is the fact that most of my students worked multiple jobs on top of balancing a full class schedule, on top of having a family. Which is unfortunately the reality of it — a lot of them were teenage parents, they're the providers for their family, they're traveling an hour, hour and a half to get to school. There's all of this context we don't necessarily see from the surface level of tourism that's actually there — and once you look behind the glass, it might not be pretty, but you understand, you have a deeper connection and context about the place you're visiting, which I think is huge, and what we need to focus on more when it comes to tourism on the cultural side.

[24:04] Absolutely. So with these students, how did you navigate those cultural differences in the classroom then, because as you mentioned, you talked with them on these deeper subjects — we both had these experiences where we're maybe not fully aware of what the students go through until we actually talk to them, and then we get more insight onto the local life, but perhaps how that operates day-to-day is different than what we go through.

[24:30] For the most part, my students were so respectful and taught me so much, and I never really had too much — maybe Ramadan. During Ramadan it was really difficult for my students because they're fasting, and Morocco, Marrakesh, can be kind of hot. I know I struggled during it, I was like, damn.

[24:49] Because you also were fasting for the most part of it.

[24:52] Almost all of us were.

[24:53] Yeah, which is amazing — talk about cultural immersion.

[24:58] It was honestly really fun to be a part of that.

[25:01] And share that experience.

[25:02] Share that experience with them, but also my peers who were abroad — a lot of my peers weren't Muslim, so us doing that together, we had a lot of reflections about what it was like to be in Morocco during Ramadan — obviously not what it's like to be Muslim, because we don't share that experience, but this one aspect was really enlightening for a lot of us, and beautiful. I remember one of our Muslim friends put in the chat, guys, I feel so seen, I feel so heard and valued, and we were like, of course, we love you. And I did it for my students too, to see what it was like. Before Ramadan even started, one of my students gave me dates and snacks — professor, we eat this to break our fast in the morning and at night — and I was like, wait, this is so sweet, thank you so much, and they were shocked to hear I was participating in the fast. And I remember the one phrase I kept saying, even when I was with you, I was like, I'm fasting, I'm fasting, and everybody would always look at me like I was crazy — what do you mean you're fasting? But yeah, they taught me a lot during that time as well.

[26:05] I mean this was all good points, because the whole experience with me just visiting with you during Ramadan — I was so excited you were there during that time too.

[26:11] I think you got a really special Morocco that was quieter, and maybe almost more Morocco in a sense — maybe not, but it was something different than what normal people would get to see, I think.

[26:26] It was, and honestly I think one of my favorite points of being in Morocco at that point was having those iftars we had with the different local families and friends that you guys had, which I thought was so — I felt so welcome, it was such an interesting cultural experience.

[26:43] I forgot about that.

[26:44] Yeah, we were in Tanzir, and they had this huge amount of people come over, and I got to meet everyone — everyone was speaking in different languages. Literally everybody — we had somebody from Turkey, I think it was from Italy or Spain, and then obviously someone was speaking French, Darija, and English. That's what I'm saying, it was like literally a connecting point from all of these different corners of the world in this one room, and that's one of the parts I love about cultural travel and even budget travel — I've always talked about it.

[27:16] Hey, I'm slowly — you've seen the side of it.

[27:19] Yeah, I know.

[27:20] But it's just the point that you don't necessarily get this level of experience when you're going to those resorts or just sticking to the tourist path. And then you're just sitting in that space and you're like, oh my gosh, this is real, I'm experiencing this, and I'm having this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be a part of this cultural celebration. That's one of my core memories — just sitting there with a bunch of people, hearing all these languages, being a part of it. I think it was Friday, after we got back from Portugal, right? That night or the next night we just started celebrating.

[27:53] It was a magical moment. I still remember as many of those conversations from that night — it's just, Tanzir, it's just a magical place. I only ever have positive memories from there. But I do remember this iftar specifically, having to set up that big table, everybody was making food, it was great.

[28:11] And then the cleanup after.

[28:13] Yeah, that was a lot. There was so much food.

[28:16] But the food was worth it — you got real Moroccan food that night.

[28:19] I did, it was so delicious, I still think about it.

[28:25] Oh, I think about Moroccan food on the daily.

[28:27] Well, before we close out this episode — because we're doing part one and part two, since, yes, you're one of my best friends, but also because you had such a very enriching experience in Morocco, and I think you have so many interesting stories, perspectives, facts to share with everyone — my last question is going to be, what advice would you give to travelers or teachers about connecting across cultures respectfully? Now this isn't just unique to the classroom, it can be beyond, while they immerse into the culture and community during their time in the country.

[29:00] I think even if you're shy, just pull someone aside and ask a question — I think that's been the best. And another tip that I have for teachers or anybody traveling — I'm going to assume it's for somebody going with a slower lifestyle, but really for anyone — this advice came from our executive director at Fulbright in Morocco, and it was: even if you accomplish one thing a day, that's still a success, and think of it as a success. Because if you're moving abroad, you have so much on your plate — you have to learn the language because you should, you have to teach, you have to figure out how to teach in this new environment, because a lot of us don't always know how to properly teach in our own home, much less move across the ocean and start teaching there.

[29:48] Completely different.

[29:49] Completely different. So take it one day at a time. If you accomplish one thing in that day, it's been a success, and you can go to sleep, play happy, and wake up the next morning and say, okay, maybe today we do another thing, or maybe we push it to two things — whether that be, I don't know, finishing all your grading and then going to the butcher and ordering everything in the local language. Just things like that are successes. As long as you can reframe your mind into any tiny little thing becomes a success, then everything is going to be a success for you. And I think that was something Morocco gave me that I feel no matter what I do moving forward, whether it be moving abroad again or whatnot, I can do it and it will be successful.

[30:30] I love that — I'm going to leave it on that. I feel like it's just a great philosophy that anyone can apply to any situation going forward, and just how they approach life.

[30:42] I hope so.

[30:44] Because it's helped me a lot now, especially being back in New York.

[30:49] Well, thank you so much for this conversation, Mike, it's been really informative. I'm looking to continue the conversation with you in part two, so asking everyone to tune in to the next episode for a continuation of our conversation with Mike and his time in Morocco. And be sure to check out Kultura Travel's new website that just launched last week — we're adding a bunch of new itineraries to the page, so please go check it out and start your cultural experience today. Thank you, everyone. Bye.