Speaking the Place: How Language Changes the Way You Travel

[0:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Put the Guidebook Down. Today, we are talking about languages, identity, and how language change, not just where someone travels, but how they see the world. My name is Kiara, and I am your host, joined back again by my good friend and colleague, Hari, [0:19] a Boren Scholar and Gilman Research Scholar at the University of Alabama. He is a dual-degree undergraduate studying data science and foreign languages and literature, with study and work experiences at universities, nonprofits, and research institutions across the United States, Indonesia, and Germany. He is training for a career in sustainable development. Welcome back, Hari. How are you?

[0:43] Doing great. How are you, Kiara?

[0:46] We're staying warm here in New York. It's a little rough out here. But we're going to really focus a little bit more from your previous episode onto Indonesian and your experience in Indonesia, as we were in the same program for part of your time and then you went off and had a continuation in a different location. [1:09] Most people travel with phrasebooks, apps, or just enough words to get by. But what if learning a language became part of living in a place? So think about this episode to cover more about this is where travel goes beyond sightseeing and becoming more part of rhythm, sound and story. So I want to start at the beginning, Hari. [1:34] How did Indonesia first enter your life?

[1:39] For me, it really started with the Boren Scholarship because, I mean, we talked about this last time, you know, that I love learning languages. And basically, when I saw the Boren Scholarship and I saw the options that were available, I saw that I had never been to Southeast Asia. [1:55] And I saw that Indonesia had a very unique and diverse, I guess, landscape of languages, because you know how there are so many languages in Indonesia. And I thought from a natural language processing perspective, that could be really, really interesting. [2:10] And I guess one thing led to another, I applied and I got it and you know the rest.

[2:14] Right. As you said, one of my favorite quotes from the last episode, you definitely deserve to be in the room, so why not apply? And I want to remind our listeners of that. It's my favorite mic drop from our first episode. But I want to even go back further in terms of what were your impressions of [2:32] Indonesia before arriving?

[2:35] Yeah, that's a really good question. So I feel like I came from a different perspective than other people. Because from my experience talking to others, it seems like other people, when they think of Indonesia, they think of Bali first. But I actually don't, at least when I started to learn about Indonesia, [2:54] I actually didn't know that much about Bali. I knew a lot about, I guess, Java and some of the history and current political news going behind it, like how the capital is moving or how there is an election, I believe, around the time we were applying for the Boren, and a lot of news like that. [3:13] And also how it has a very important role in climate diplomacy and mitigating the effects of climate change, since they're the most mangrove-rich nation in the world. And I guess I knew about it from the context of my interests.

[3:29] That's so interesting because as you mentioned, everyone really goes right to Bali.

[3:34] Right.

[3:34] You can explain everything, some of which I was not really familiar with or even taking into account for my own application, but not Bali. Everything else around it. So this is so cool. And it's definitely just showing our listeners how you're going to have a completely different perspective and experience to share with us for today. Now, [3:58] transitioning more into the language component, since Boren is a language-focused program, what did you think Bahasa Indonesia would be like and what surprised you?

[4:11] That's a very good question. I think the first thing that people should know is that Bahasa Indonesia, along with Bahasa Melayu or Malay, is actually written with the same Latin script that we English speakers use. And that was probably the first thing that surprised me, because I really, I guess I just expected [4:33] Indonesian, like other Asian languages, to be written in a different script. So obviously that made it a lot easier to learn. And I guess other than that, I was also surprised about how relatively simple the grammar seemed and how intuitive it seemed, especially because I came from a German language learning background. And in German, [4:55] as you might be familiar with, you need to learn so many cases and genders and other things. And as you're familiar with in German, you have to know so many cases and genders and other things. Whereas in Indonesian, you don't have to memorize gender or case or the different forms that the pronouns [5:16] take or any of these things. So that really surprised me, basically how simple the grammar was.

[5:23] Yeah, I think that just from a linguistics perspective as well, that's one of the reasons why Bahasa Indonesia is one of my favorite languages to have learned, because the grammar is just so straightforward and we all have experienced the massive uptake it takes to learn different cases when learning new languages, [5:44] especially if you're not familiar with cases to begin with, and it's just so overwhelming and kind of intimidating. So it's actually funny, taking that back to why I chose Indonesian, because I had someone ask me this the other day in my class, and my reason was literally because I looked at all the other Southeast Asian [6:05] languages and I was five minutes into listening on their version of the 101 episodes on YouTube and was like, absolutely not, I can't learn this in the span of a few months. And then it was just like, yeah, that's easy, it's super happy, super chill.

[6:22] Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I had a similar revelation, because part of why it was Indonesian is because I didn't want to learn a tonal language like Vietnamese, for example, but I still wanted to go to that region of Southeast Asia. And Indonesian was by far the easier choice possible.

[6:43] Yes, no tones in this language other than regular inflection points.

[6:49] Right, yeah.

[6:50] One day we'll tackle tonal languages, but not for that program.

[6:56] Yeah, not today. It's not for me. Yeah.

[7:01] But going into more about SEAFLI in general, because we're shouting out our friends from the Thai and Vietnamese programs that did have tonal languages to learn in a short time span. What role did Boren play in structuring the language learning?

[7:18] Boren, for me, and I want to preface this by saying that I have done a language immersion program before this with German, but my Indonesian experience with Boren was much better because it was so much more integrated. Because obviously I lived with my host family. I met with language partners all the time. [7:40] And we were in class for quite a few hours every day, as you probably remember. And not just the language classes, but also the cultural elective classes, like dance and music, mostly.

[7:55] Yeah, singing.

[7:56] So, yeah. Me, Jade, you and Luke for [unclear]. Yeah. So basically it felt like that one almost like eight to five, if not longer, where we were just focusing on the language every day, and that was extremely, extremely useful for just [8:19] becoming immersed in the language and getting all of the benefits of living there.

[8:25] And how did this differ from the German program that you mentioned, that immersive experience, the structure of language learning? Maybe give our listeners some more insight into that.

[8:36] Yeah, that's a good point. So actually, it is a little misleading. This German immersion program was in the United States, but it was one recommended by my German professor, who told me that this immersion program in the United States would be better than just going to Germany. Because [8:55] many Americans who go to Germany and try to practice their German will just get responses in English. Whereas if you go to this immersion program, it's actually Portland State University, if anyone wants to look it up. If you go to this program, you'll basically live in a German dorm for the summer and go to German language [9:17] classes with German professors at Portland State University for, I want to say, five to eight weeks. And obviously I still had to speak English, like if I go to the grocery store or something, but that was actually a very good immersion program for being in the United States.

[9:38] What do you mean by a German dorm? Were there only German students in this? Or what does that mean?

So on our floor...

Yeah, there are German flags everywhere. Like, enter all German stereotypes in one dormitory.

[9:54] Our floor was only German language students, basically. Yeah, and it was also very tight-knit groups, and we were forced to be tight-knit because of how much time we spent together through class and extracurriculars. So we basically only hung out with each other, which made it easier to only speak in German.

[10:16] Okay, so people were actually adhering to trying to speak German 24-7?

[10:21] Yeah, actually.

[10:22] Interesting. Okay. I had some questions, but I think that just clarifies most of it as to how strong the program is if the students were actually committed to using the language 24-7.

[10:34] Yeah, our students were. I think if you go into that program, you're probably willing and ready to commit to that language immersion. And the program itself is very good. I actually got my B1 in German, my B1 certificate, because of that program.

[10:50] Wow. And that was after 8 to 10 weeks?

[10:54] After 5 to 8 weeks. Something like that.

[10:57] Okay. That is quite impressive. Wow. Good for you.

[11:01] Thank you.

[11:03] But going back to Bahasa Indonesia now, since we're focusing on that for this episode, what were some moments where Bahasa Indonesia as a language really just clicked for you? Just started really making sense?

[11:17] That's a good question. I would say, if I'm being honest, I can't pinpoint one specific moment, but I feel like the common thread is whenever I'm struggling to say something. Or, not when I'm struggling, but whenever I enter what I would consider like a difficult conversation is when [11:40] something new just clicks in every one of those conversations. I remember one example would be I'm explaining the electoral college from the United States to my host parents in Indonesian, which is something some people, I would say, could not do in English. Yeah. Basically, whenever I enter what I consider a more difficult language, [12:02] more than an everyday conversation, basically, I struggle a little bit and then something clicks and then I make it through. But again, no particular moment.

[12:15] Okay. All right. You kind of are able to just find the flow in the conversation just by navigating abstract or complex topics or vocabulary. And then it just comes out like word vomit, maybe.

[12:27] Yeah, you explained that way much better than I could have.

[12:31] Okay, you had to give me the framework.

[12:36] Yeah, did you have a moment where it clicked for you?

[12:40] You know, we know how Indonesians like to be kepo. So for our listeners, kepo is a slang word for someone who likes to gossip over there. And my click moment was really with my host parents, because we were always gossiping together. And it's not just about the thing relevant to the program or what's going on [13:06] in their lives, but it's also my personal life and drama with friends back home. And really, we were gossiping, and our dining table was always funny to listen to. You would catch the staff and other students lingering by because we were just going so fast in Indonesian, because it just felt like it all clicked. [13:25] As you said, you're like, oh my gosh, I don't know what I'm saying, really. I was not even thinking in English, just word vomited out. And I was like, that's kind of cool.

[13:33] Yeah. You just reached flow state.

[13:35] Yeah. Flow state. I locked in. I was like, yeah, this is a topic I'm passionate about. So then it just went out with it.

[13:41] Yeah. I think another point that really helped me for the language to click was in our classes, when we were assigned to give our own lectures to the rest of the classroom. And I believe we could choose the topics, but we basically became the teacher for the day. [13:58] And that really put us on the spot and really helped me a lot with the language.

[14:04] All right, I'm going to be honest. I mean, I agree with you that they helped a lot, but I didn't know what was going on half the time. Especially during your presentations where you whipped out the Anki vocabulary. I was like, that's not fair. That wasn't in the vocabulary. [14:22] And then they would ask, does anyone have any questions? And I was like, yeah, what the heck is going on? I don't know what anyone means.

[14:31] Yeah, I hate to say it, but there were many moments where you would ask, I swear, for some vocab words, you would ask, what does this word mean? Like every week or something.

[14:42] I really would. It would take a lot of explaining since they couldn't break it down in English. We'd have to break it down in Indonesian for me to understand. And I was like, man, how are people getting these words? It's not fair.

[14:56] I'm telling you, Anki, it's just the way it goes. It's just optimal.

[15:01] If you're listening, Anki, he could be your ambassador. The amount of times he brought it up and was showing off his sets, it is impressive.

[15:12] Yeah, it really makes a difference for vocabulary. I'll say that.

[15:17] But going beyond just vocabulary and talking about more mistakes, since we brought up my endless questions seeking understanding in Indonesian, are there any funny, memorable, laughable moments for language mistakes that became part of your story, whether this is during your SEAFLI time or when you were off on your own program in the spring?

[15:39] Yeah, I'm sure there were more than just one for sure. But the one that comes to mind is when we were in class together in Malang. And I believe we were talking about the theme of vacation for the day. And one of the vocab words obviously was amusement park. And for our English listeners, for context, [16:03] the Indonesian word for park is very similar to the Indonesian word for friend. It's like taman versus teman. So I believe I said amusement park, taman hiburan, but they heard friend of amusement. And they were very confused as to what that meant. [16:24] And I think the whole class was confused as to what that meant. And also, one of the administrators of the language school was in the room that day to observe. And the whole class starts laughing. And it's like, what does this amusement friend mean?

[16:41] We were just poking your buttons, Hari. We were like, oh, friend of amusement. Where is this coming in? Who is this?

[16:51] Yeah, like what exactly does that mean? Yeah.

[16:53] Yeah. I totally forgot about that. There were so many good ones similar to that instance, with our other colleagues, just messing up a single tone or vowel and then all of a sudden it changes the meaning to something completely inappropriate and they don't understand what they're doing. [17:10] But then the professors are just laughing and you got to give them a second to stop before they explain.

[17:16] Exactly. Yeah. Oh, my God. That happened so many times.

[17:20] All in good humor. This is one of the struggles of learning a new language, but we're all in the struggle together. But now I'm talking about the impact of language, because we did take the extra step to go beyond just the surface level of vocabulary and grammar. [17:38] How did speaking Bahasa Indonesia transform your relationships with locals?

[17:43] That's a really good question. And I really want to share this one story I had. So when I lived in Pontianak, I was working as a data scientist, but I took one week off to go to this marine national park in Bunaken. And I stayed at this hotel that was on Bunaken Island. [18:06] One of the workers at the hotel used to work for the national park. And because I could speak Indonesian, basically full professional proficiency, we had no problems communicating. And I told her about how I'm super interested in conservation, and [18:25] I asked her a bunch of questions about how do the national parks in Indonesia work, and how does this one work. And because I was able to speak the local language, and I'm guessing because she hadn't met many hotel guests who could speak the language, we bonded fairly quickly. [18:41] And then she even offered to take me inside of the national park office. And I got to meet some of the people who worked there and ask whatever I wanted.

[18:50] That's so cool. You got a whole different experience just because your language kind of unlocked this new level.

[18:56] Yeah, exactly.

[18:58] But continuing into community engagement. Now, I want to shift a little bit more beyond just language, because as part of any culture or language, there is more: habits, cultural etiquette, expressions, body language is super important. So maybe what daily habits or practices did you begin to adopt that felt uniquely Indonesian, [19:23] maybe while you were living abroad, and then now if you've taken any back home with you?

[19:29] Yeah, so the ones I'll talk about here are definitely ones that I believe I still do, and I've brought them back to America, but it's definitely just taking greetings more seriously and asking more, slash, better questions. Because as you know, in Indonesia, people are always ready to greet you and ask you questions. [19:53] And even though to some Americans it might come off as invasive, just because of the different cultural script and cultural framework, it's their way of showing that they care about you and that they want to get to know you in like a friendly way. So yeah, [20:10] that was the biggest thing that I started doing even while I was in Indonesia, whenever I met someone new. And it's something I definitely took back to the United States. And to this day, I'll still have people tell me, oh, wow, you ask really interesting questions. I never would have thought to ask that. [20:27] And I'm not really sure what the difference is, but I think it comes from me living in Indonesia.

[20:34] Hmm. I like that. I think it's a really good point. And I think I have an idea as to why they ask that of you. Because I felt it myself when I came back, really, in terms of how fast-paced and impersonal American culture can tend to be on the surface level. [20:51] And I was talking to an expat the other day, that this was one of the larger culture shocks that they experienced, is people saying, hi, how are you? But they actually don't have any intention of knowing how you are. They just say that as hello and keep [21:05] walking. So, not taking the time to pause and actually answer or listen. And by the time the person receiving that is already beginning to talk, the person's out the door, down the street. So I think it's a reflection of American culture and maybe how fast-paced we are, focused on getting to the next place, [21:26] A to B, where we're starting to stay on that surface level of interactions. And when we actually take the time to go deeper with people, people sometimes get uncomfortable or they don't know how to react, because they never actually had to stop and think, how am I doing?

[21:42] Yeah. Yeah. No, those are all really good points. And that's probably how my American friends are feeling right now. But yeah.

[21:50] They're probably like, he's a really good listener now. I don't know what happened over there, but he locks in every conversation.

[21:57] But definitely how do I interact with others and how do I show up in my conversations with others, you know?

[22:05] I love that. Just how you move through this space, going with more intention and purpose, is a good one to take back. Now, speaking of taking things back and applying it to now where you are today, we have to talk about career and your professional path as we're getting closer to the end of the episode. [22:26] Did Indonesia change what you wanted to study, research, or pursue career-wise? And if so, how?

[22:33] After I completed my data science internship at Planet Indonesia in West Kalimantan, I thought that I was very interested in a career in conservation. And honestly, to this day, I kind of go back and forth, because right after Indonesia, I did environmental economics research in Germany, and now I'm kind of back and [23:00] forth, like, oh, do I want to be more in the field and do all this really cool field work and really do the conservation stuff, or do I want to be in a research lab and analyze this important energy data and stuff like that, and [23:21] create research and inform policy. Both of which I think are important. I'm not trying to say one is bad or one is good. Both are really important and both are really fun, but yeah, it definitely opened my eyes to what a conservation career looks like, [23:41] especially because when I worked at Planet Indonesia, I didn't just do the data science work. I also did field work and I went to villages along the Kapuas River. So, yeah, I guess my answer would be that it opened my eyes to the conservation career, but I wouldn't say it made me commit or anything.

[24:00] Just making you aware of more possibilities out there.

[24:04] Yeah. Yeah. And it also did make me want to come back to Indonesia in the future. And even to this day, for example, the last project that I proposed to my PI at my university, which he ended up approving, has to do with conservation and conflict in Indonesia. [24:24] So even to this day, I still want to do research about Indonesia. And hopefully I can go back and do cool work there. Because I think the whole marine conservation landscape there is very, very interesting and very important because, like I said, they have the most mangroves in the world.

[24:46] Yeah, for sure. I mean, because I've talked to you about your research and I'm always curious what pathway you're on now for what you want to do after, because there's just so many options out there. And I feel, just at least from my personal background experience, I never even thought about [25:02] conservation or what that would even look like as a career. So watching you go through the research side of your Boren and then now even submitting this new proposal is super cool and fascinating to me, because it makes sense. Indonesia is huge, so many beautiful natural resources. And I feel that as a society, [25:21] at least from the American side, we don't talk much about that part of Indonesia. We still just focus on Bali.

[25:29] Yeah, that's totally true.

[25:31] Well, we're coming to the end of our episode, Hari. Is there any final words of advice that you'd like to leave with our listeners today before we close out?

[25:39] I would just say, I guess, repeat what I said last time. If you're interested in study abroad, apply, apply, apply, apply. And don't let the imposter syndrome get to you. If you're in the room, you deserve to be there. And also, I would say, if you're interested in learning an Asian language, [25:59] definitely consider Bahasa Indonesia. It is, compared to other Asian languages, much easier from an English-speaking background. And it opens you up to so many cool opportunities in Indonesia and in Southeast Asia in general.

[26:15] Yeah, so true. And needless to say, it's also one of the happier languages, as a linguist, that I have studied. Even some of the meaner phrases translate to a happier word-by-word translation. And you're like, wow, is that really an insult at the end of the day? I don't know.

[26:31] Yeah, true. Like in Indonesian, how instead of saying mean, you can say mean, but people will also just say less than nice, like kurang baik.

[26:42] Yeah, it's just so positive. My favorite, speaking of taking back habits, it's instead of saying no, saying not yet, belum. I just always say that now, and people have commented, they're like, that's so positive. And I'm like, I think we have a lot to learn from Bahasa Indonesia.

[26:58] Yeah, that's true. I definitely have taken a lot of belum, or not yet, and another time, to my English speaking today.

[27:06] Yeah, making me miss Indonesia, Hari. Have to go back.

Yeah, that's a good point. We definitely need to go back one day.

Amazing. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on for another episode, Hari. This was really informative, at least to me, in [27:24] terms of learning about your career life path and really the power of language and how it really opens up new opportunities, experiences, connections. I always give a shout out to Kultura Travel for following that same kind of meaning and telling people to take an extra little piece of research or effort to [27:45] go deeper with their experience rather than staying at the surface level, maybe on a fixed travel influencer recommended itinerary. Hari's journey reminds us that travel can be more than snapshots and checklists. When you learn how to speak with people, not just about places, you start to live inside them. Travel becomes reciprocity instead of consumption. [28:08] Language isn't perfect, but attention always matters. So I'd like to encourage our listeners to respond with what's one phrase in another language that changed the way you see a place. Be sure to follow Hari on Instagram and check out his LinkedIn to stay up to date with his latest research. And of course, [28:30] follow Kultura Travel's and Put the Guidebook Down's journeys on YouTube and Substack to subscribe for more episodes. Thank you so much, everyone. Bye. Bye.